Rossi...wow (Contains Spoilers)

[QuietRider]

Originally Posted by CrazyJoe

I didn't hear --- but what happed to Stoner? He was so damn far ahead and then just started slowing down --- tires?

It was arm pump Joe. Here's a quote from Stoner:

"The bike was working well for us, I definitely had the package and the pace to lead the field which was really positive. However, I suffered from really bad arm pump. After three or four laps I felt it but it gradually got worse, I tried to pull a little gap from Jorge and Dani and put in the minimal effort possible to retain the gap and try and win, but as the race continued it got worse and worse and eventually the muscles had nothing more to give. I couldn't hold onto the handle bars properly and it made things really difficult so it was a disappointing race for this reason, but for many other technical reasons it was very promising".

[Falcon 269]

Originally Posted by Super Googan

Exactly ! I wont be calling Rossi washed up until I see him in 10th on a competitive bike. He got tired of losing the front end constantly on the Duc last year, but hung tough waiting for the necessary changes . They never came, the Duc's still a terd and Rossi is content to putt around at 80% until his contract expires.

Need to keep a bit of perspective here. Season is only one race old, after all.

Ducati threw a lot of time and money at last year's bike, changing it as much as they could during the season. They brought forward developments based on the GP12 bike, too, at the cost of their engine allocation in 2011.

The changes greatly improved the rear end of the GP11 machine but never cured the front end feel issue. So, Ducati took the expensive and somewhat technically embarrassing step of canning the carbon fibre chassis concept and having a 'traditional' alloy beam frame made (by a UK company) which debuted at the end of season tests in Valencia last November.

Since then, that chassis has only three pre-season test periods of development by the riders. These sessions were interrupted by bad weather and Hayden was injured, too.

So, Rossi and Hayden are effectively having to fine tune the new bike at the races now, not an ideal situation when Yamaha and Honda are running 1000cc versions of bikes they've developed into winners over the last 5 years.

Rossi said before Qatar that his side of the garage went the wrong way with set-up in Sepang and that cost them valuable time in Jerez. Hayden's crew did it better and that's reflected in Nicky's performance at the moment.

Rossi isn't like Stoner. He won't consistently ride to the point of crashing if he knows the front end can't be trusted to give the feel and accuracy required. What's the point in giving 110% if it puts him in hospital for half the season? He's frustrated, sure, but he has to play the long game with Ducati. There's no ride for him back in Japan and he has to win on the Ducati to go out on a high.

[gixxerjasen]

Not sure if the part at about 0:24 was from the race or practice (They follow it up with a clip of his crash in practice), but if that's the chatter that Spies was dealing with...major props for staying out there and maintaining what position he did!

[flbusa]

Originally Posted by Falcon 269

Rossi isn't like Stoner. He won't consistently ride to the point of crashing if he knows the front end can't be trusted to give the feel and accuracy required. What's the point in giving 110% if it puts him in hospital for half the season? He's frustrated, sure, but he has to play the long game with Ducati. There's no ride for him back in Japan and he has to win on the Ducati to go out on a high.

Good points!

Why take any risks if you know that it's the bike that wins the races these days and not so much the rider.

On the flip side... I think the loss of Simoncelli is much more than a personal one for MotoGP. The series really benefited from his high risk, go for broke style.

I mean WTF is up with Ben Spies? That guy would pull of amazing crazy stuff when he was in AMA and WSB and now that he's in MotoGP it's like his Mojo has been sucked out. Same goes for Nicky Hayden, it's like they're riding just good enough to collect a pay check.

[Racer Boy]

MotoGP is the pinnacle of bike racing. The very best in the world are involved, from the riders to the engineers. The higher you go, the tougher it gets.

Winning in AMA is not the same as winning in MotoGP. I bet both Hayden and Spies are riding harder than they had to in the AMA.

[jredford]

So with that said, given the high level of talent, is the best rider the person with the best bike?

[CrazyJoe]

Good points fer sure. I'm definitely not going to take anything away from any of these guys --- they are the very best. Some one has to win which means others will come in behind.

It's hard for me to swallow this arm pump thing. I thought these guys worked out -- like all the time. I wish it would have been his tires.

[CrazyJoe]

Originally Posted by jredford

So with that said, given the high level of talent, is the best rider the person with the best bike?

That could definitely be where it's going. Before long, the rider will just hold the throttle wide open -- or maybe just a throttle button --- and the computers on the bike will take care of everything else.

The program will do a perfect start and perfect wheelie at the end. Plus everything in-between re-programed for each track.

[Falcon 269]

Originally Posted by flbusa

On the flip side... I think the loss of Simoncelli is much more than a personal one for MotoGP. The series really benefited from his high risk, go for broke style.

I mean WTF is up with Ben Spies? That guy would pull of amazing crazy stuff when he was in AMA and WSB and now that he's in MotoGP it's like his Mojo has been sucked out. Same goes for Nicky Hayden, it's like they're riding just good enough to collect a pay check.

Ironically, Simoncelli would have been a winner this season (if not before the end of 2011) but to do so would have required him to curb his go-for-broke style. You could see it happening before he was so tragically taken from us. Rodeo maverick style doesn't cut it with the precision required of the MotoGP bikes.

Nicky is giving it his very best shot and he always has. I don't believe he knows how to do anything different. Admire him greatly.

[Falcon 269]

Originally Posted by CrazyJoe

It's hard for me to swallow this arm pump thing. I thought these guys worked out -- like all the time.

And therein lies the problem. Stoner himself said in the BBC live interview after Sunday's race that additional gym work would be counter-productive because arm pump is caused by the muscle growing bigger than the sheath in which it's encased.

Many riders have surgery to cut the sheath and allow the muscle more room to expand, thus negating the problems of restricted blood flow and pain/reduced feeling caused by pressure on the nerves.

[CrazyJoe]

Originally Posted by Falcon 269

And therein lies the problem. Stoner himself said in the BBC live interview after Sunday's race that additional gym work would be counter-productive because arm pump is caused by the muscle growing bigger than the sheath in which it's encased.

Many riders have surgery to cut the sheath and allow the muscle more room to expand, thus negating the problems of restricted blood flow and pain/reduced feeling caused by pressure on the nerves.

Damn, maybe I have "neck pump" when I ride.

[gixxerjasen]

Arm pump comes from riding? I thought it came from something else? I only seem to get it in one arm.

[Cougar]

Originally Posted by gixxerjasen

Yup, most will be on Speed. Seems about once a year we get one aired on public broadcast stations. That one will have the announcers dumbing it down for the general public (ie, explaining how motorcycles have to lean when they go around a corner.)

And that idiot announcer will talk about Jorge Lorenthow.

[flbusa]

Originally Posted by Racer Boy

MotoGP is the pinnacle of bike racing. The very best in the world are involved, from the riders to the engineers. The higher you go, the tougher it gets.

Winning in AMA is not the same as winning in MotoGP. I bet both Hayden and Spies are riding harder than they had to in the AMA.

I don't know if I believe that 100%.

The higher you go, the more technology comes into play.

Are Hayden and Spies riding harder? I can't really say because I'm not them and don't work in the industry but I can say this... It sure doesn't look like they are. Maybe the real reason why they aren't doing well is that they just don't have the skills to be up front with Stoner and Lorenzo or maybe it's their equipment. If it's the latter then I say they're not riding harder and are just struggling with a bike that's not up to par with the competition.

All I know is this... Ever since they allowed bikes to have traction control... MotoGP is a lot less exciting to watch.

[Falcon 269]

Originally Posted by CrazyJoe

That could definitely be where it's going. Before long, the rider will just hold the throttle wide open -- or maybe just a throttle button --- and the computers on the bike will take care of everything else.

A common misconception.

First, the way the rider moves his weight around the bike is a major factor and no computer can do that, or predict even what the pilot is going to do.

Second, the engines in these machines are in a seriously advanced state of tune - and I don't mean peak power outputs. To get race distance out of 21 litres of fuel has a big impact on power delivery characteristics, most noticeably when getting back on the throttle. The torque has to be metered out carefully, too, to preserve tyre life.

Colin Edwards has provided some very good insight to this over recent years, particularly since moving to the BMW-Suter CRT bike he's riding this season.

Without traction control and the other engine management systems, these MotoGP prototypes would be virtually unrideable. De-tune them back to the point where riders could reasonably use the throttle without electronic aid and you'd be back almost to WSB-spec engines. Actually, you'd be back further than that because the Aprilia and BMW engines in the MotoGP CRT bikes are derived from the WSB motors and those, too, have pretty sophisticated electronics.

If you want to see where that would take us, take a look at the 2012 BSB series. Control tyres, control ECU and - for the first time in years - no traction control.

I think it's good in a way to restrict the electronics in the Superbike classes but MotoGP is pure prototype racing (OK, maybe less so the CRTs) and the factories should be given the chance to show what they can do. The TC systems coming widely on street bikes now have their origins in MotoGP, after all.

[Falcon 269]

Just plucked this from the Crashnet.com website re the Qatar total race times. It shows the difference between each rider's time last season on the 800cc vs this year on the 1000cc bikes.

Rider 2011 / 2012 Time difference*

Cal Crutchlow Yamaha (11th) / Yamaha (4th) -11.780sec
Dani Pedrosa Honda (3rd) / Honda (2nd) +1.446sec
Jorge Lorenzo Yamaha (2nd)/ Yamaha (1st) +2.205sec
Hector Barbera Ducati (12th) / Ducati (9th) +2.200sec
Nicky Hayden Ducati (9th) / Ducati (6th) +6.642sec
Casey Stoner Honda (1st) / Honda (3rd) +8.553sec
Andrea Dovizioso Honda (4th) / Yamaha (5th) +17.123sec
Valentino Rossi Ducati (7th) / Ducati (10th) +22.879sec
Colin Edwards Yamaha (8th) / Suter-BMW (12th) +37.440sec
Ben Spies Yamaha (6th) / Yamaha (11th) +52.084sec

* - means quicker in 2012, + means slower.

Discuss.

[RedFlash]

So, at least @ Qatar, the 800's lapped faster. Wonder how that will change at various tracks & with 1000cc development.

[diehli]

How much of that speaks simply to the level of development on brand new bikes?

[jredford]

Interesting to me that Crutchlow posted the best "relative" time.

What do you guys make of that?

[gixxerjasen]

Originally Posted by Cougar

And that idiot announcer will talk about Jorge Lorenthow.

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bant...ounce-lorenzo/