We have reached a new low...:(

[Adjuster]

Big wall.

Open area.

Smaller wall.

The area in the middle is called a kill box for a reason.

No politics needed, border secured.

Israel does it best, BTW.

[Bill A]

Originally Posted by Bill A

seriously.

Originally Posted by Blind Spot

You have Netflix don't you?

View the documentary American Drug War: The Last White Hope.

Alternatively, the book "Dark Alliance" http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Alliance-.../dp/1888363932

Obviously, don't take them at face value, I don't. Validate what it tells you yourself.

Our gub'mint blows.

mine was a statement, not a question

[gixxerjasen]

Keeping this going, cuz...well...I'm bored.

Originally Posted by Blind Spot

Surely you've realized by now that I'm fine with ignoring the fact that they're "illegals" because I don't believe they need to be nor that that it's in our interest that they are. If this is a step towards that I'm fine with it.

So after some thinking on this, no offense but I've determined that your position stated here makes absolutely no sense. As you have clearly stated several times, and I've acknowledged your statements, your position is that they should not be illegal at all.



However, based on your strong position I would think you above all should be against this law. This only makes the case for your opposition even stronger. You see, you don't make a law to make something legal. You make laws to make them illegal. Currently we have laws on the books that make these people illegal and the only way to get them legal is to remove those laws. However, here is yet one more law that pushes them further into the hole of actually being illegal. It is a further definition and declaration of their status. You should want this law off of the books.

I kind of like the phrase that goes "Every time someone says 'There aught to be a law!' there usually shouldn't." For me, this law that gives them these benefits is bad and we shouldn't put it on the books for a lot of reasons. First and foremost because I don't want my money going where it isn't deserved. That's a whole argument of it's own, but you don't want this law either for the above mentioned reasons. Leave the law off the books, let the money go to those who it's supposed to go for, and work on getting the folks that need to be legal, legal.

Originally Posted by Blind Spot

In don't think of it as rewarding criminality as much as I do practicing how things should be irrespective of asinine/counterproductive law. We're good at that aren't we? Last I checked MJ was a Schedule I drug to the Federal Government.

But it is. It specifies a group of people who are doing something against the law, and then gives them something for breaking it. How is that not rewarding criminality?

Originally Posted by Blind Spot

You can also probably tell that I'm fine with breaking the law. However, I do expect anyone that receives the consequences for doing so not to complain about it.

Yup, you play, you gotta pay...no bitching. Well, except for profiling. That goes for race, or bias against motorcycles. Yea, I'm talking to you Mr. A-hole Mesquite police officer.

Originally Posted by Blind Spot

People that want to come here to go to school are really amongst the bottom of my list of worries. In the grand scheme of things the monetary impact isn't even a blip on the radar.

If this were the only issue, I probably wouldn't have a problem with it either. But, to use an overused cliche, it's the slippery slope thing, and we are well down the slope already. It's just one more thing in a whole list that shouldn't be.

[Blind Spot]

Originally Posted by gixxerjasen

However, based on your strong position I would think you above all should be against this law. This only makes the case for your opposition even stronger. You see, you don't make a law to make something legal. You make laws to make them illegal. Currently we have laws on the books that make these people illegal and the only way to get them legal is to remove those laws. However, here is yet one more law that pushes them further into the hole of actually being illegal. It is a further definition and declaration of their status. You should want this law off of the books.

The current law that makes them illegal is the fact that they're here without legitimate visas or the legitimate visas they did have have expired but they haven't left or renewed. As I understand it obtaining/renewing them in a Post 9/11 era is damn near impossible and there are a lot of ways to be DQ'ed. My Coworker is from Scotland. It's amazing the hoops he has to jump through to stay here... he can be deported at a moment's notice despite the fact that he's been here for maybe 8 years? He's applying for full citizenship when he's eligible. Don't understand this burden on a person of whom I consider just as American as you or I. He pays his taxes, moreso than me. Take that away, he's an illegal, he was escaping Europe (humor me, lol) to find a better living environment. He's coming here irrespective of whether or not he can do it legally. We have his presence but have NO way of him contributing. That's all we have with the current system, a system of people who have only ways to take from the system that won't have them.

Sounds like what you're saying is that I want the law that says that being here without a legitimate visa is wrong to be repealed. That is not the case at all. What I want is the process that regulates the obtaining/renewal of those visas to be A) Easier to qualify for initially and B) Easier to renew for Mexican-(Americans?).

Yeah, you can't legislate away criminals. The law can only CREATE criminals. LAW does not prevent the 'crimes' that they dictate; it merely provides a ground for the state to prosecute under the judicial system. Law is not a bullet proof vest or a 100 foot above/below ground electrified fence; it doesn't have ANY bearing until AFTER the fact (well, except for those laws that say that if they can prove INTENT, then you're guilty too).

[Todd S]

Who knew that Adjuster's post would be among the shorter in this thread?

-T

[diehli]

Originally Posted by Todd S

Who knew that Adjuster's post would be among the shorter in this thread?

-T

Someone could've cleaned up in Vegas if they took odds on that.

[gixxerjasen]

See now Blind Spot, I knew we could find common ground. I'm in pretty much complete agreement of dang near everything you said there. Yes, I agree that we need to make it easier for the folks who are here doing everything right to be able to stay. My concern is on those who leach from our society without putting very much back in.

I know a guy in a similar situation as your friend. He was my riding buddy for doing off road stuff from the KTM group. Nicest guy you'd ever meet. He was from Austria and was a professional wood carver. He had a shop here and turned out some impressive bits of work. Impressive enough for one of his pieces to be shown in Architectural Digest. He paid his taxes and did all that was asked of him and bent over backwards for others.

His Visa renewal was declined and he was deported back home. Had to pack his whole shop into a shipping crate and send it back to his "home" even though his home was in Texas. Our country not only lost talent but a great person that day.

His story is one of the reasons I feel the way that I do about laws like the one that started up this thread. Seeing this guy go through everything he went through and lose in the end sucks. But it sucks even worse when the government decides to recognize those that did it all wrong and violated the law, and then both allow them to stay and then give them some kind of reward for breaking those laws. Especially when their contribution to our society has been very little in the first place.

That's the source of my frustration and I am all for changing the laws so that people like your friend and mine can stay, work and contribute. I'm just not all about giving out the free handouts.

[Blind Spot]

http://www.southparkstudios.com/full...-the-meheecans

LOL! Oddly enough, the latest episode of South Park is highly relevant.

"When we asked Obama to stop illegal immigrants, we didn't mean to make the US so shitty they didn't want to come anymore."

[Slim Johnson]

Originally Posted by Blind Spot

"When we asked Obama to stop illegal immigrants, we didn't mean to make the US so shitty they didn't want to come anymore."

Maybe we did...