We have reached a new low...:(

[MotoPD]

Originally Posted by Bill A

And can i safely assume that you believe no college diploma = stupid?

Uneducated=stupid. It is generally impossible to engage in meaningful labor in this economy without some sort of training. It doesn't matter if you're welding or figuring out atomic physics, you gotta know how to do something; a high school diploma without some skill ain't gonna get it done.

[Blind Spot]

Originally Posted by Bill A

So, the bast path to citizenship in America is to break the law and come here illegally.

If you get here illegally we'll pay for your college education and make you eligible to work legitimately.

Why would anyone use a legal immigration process?

No, I meant make work visas easier/longer. They'd be here legitimately. Yadig?

[Longboardr]

Originally Posted by Bill A

Is going to college the only thing that makes it possible for one to have a positive future?

I'm not asserting the need for college for one to be a success.

I'm just asking if none of the people in your example went to college without state aid. I'm assuming some of them did, and the reason they were able to do so was because their parents either had the money for their tuition or were able to secure them loans not provided by the state.

[Bill A]

Originally Posted by MotoPD

Uneducated=stupid. It is generally impossible to engage in meaningful labor in this economy without some sort of training. It doesn't matter if you're welding or figuring out atomic physics, you gotta know how to do something; a high school diploma without some skill ain't gonna get it done.

and so you believe it follows then, (if you are supporting Longborader's assertions) that without taxpayer subsidized college education, everyone is destined to a life of crime?

[Bill A]

Originally Posted by Longboardr

Even though they're not your children you still have to directly deal with what choices those children will make if you don't make it possible for them to have a positive future.

Originally Posted by Longboardr

I'm not asserting the need for college for one to be a success.

Please reconcile these two statements in the context of this thread's topic.

[Longboardr]

I didn't say that without college people will turn to a life of crime. I was pointing out that aid for college is similar to paying for k-12 even though some of the people paying don't have children.

[Bill A]

Originally Posted by Longboardr

I'm just asking if none of the people in your example went to college without state aid. I'm assuming some of them did, and the reason they were able to do so was because their parents either had the money for their tuition or were able to secure them loans not provided by the state.

I went to college (twice, separated by decades) with no state aid.
I worked three jobs the first time, two jobs the second time, and paid my tuition as i went along.

My sons all went to college with no state aid, Alana and i paid for most of it, and my sons worked, too. We all graduated without any education debt.
(And i am still driving a 1997 Dodge Dakota with 230,000 miles on it.)

So Alana and I (their parents) did not "have the money". We sacrificed and saved throughout their lives, and took extra work to pay for their educations.

One of my sons dropped out before graduating. He has an excellent job (in which he is excelling), and has recently been accepted into the next class at the CHP academy. I guess we're all just lucky that he isn't a drug addicted criminal and a drain on the state.

[owensfz1]

Originally Posted by MotoPD

Uneducated=stupid. It is generally impossible to engage in meaningful labor in this economy without some sort of training. It doesn't matter if you're welding or figuring out atomic physics, you gotta know how to do something; a high school diploma without some skill ain't gonna get it done.

I work for a company that has over the past couple of years turned to crap. Upper management has turned the company over to a bunch of bean counters. I understand that not all of upper management needs to know the things that my position calls for but they should have the knowledge or at least the common sense to take advice from people that knows the business. I have 22 years in my field. We have people that are running the company that has BA degrees in different fields but has no idea what we do. It is litterally (if I spelled that right) running the company in the ground...... With all of that being said I agree skill goes a long way.

[Bill A]

Originally Posted by Longboardr

I didn't say that without college people will turn to a life of crime. I was pointing out that aid for college is similar to paying for k-12 even though some of the people paying don't have children.

but that program STOPS at 12th grade.

You seemed to imply that without subsidized college tuition, it would be impossible "for them to have a positive future."
Wasn't that your defense of subsidizing college tuition for illegals?

[Slim Johnson]

IMO this bill is as backwards as affirmative action.

I am starting to have white self hatred, because I lost all of my job percs... :

[Longboardr]

Originally Posted by Bill A

but that program STOPS at 12th grade.

You seemed to imply that without subsidized college tuition, it would be impossible "for them to have a positive future."
Wasn't that your defense of subsidizing college tuition for illegals?

Yes, the free education does stop at 12th grade. Is the aid being made available to the illegals free? They don't have to pay it back with interest? That's not how I took what I read about it but I certainly could be wrong!

[MotoPD]

A statistically significant greater likelihood does not mean everyone in the group shares that quality. You know that and are just sniping/trolling. Advance evidence that supports your position or accept the proposition as proven. This does not include anecdotes of "I work super hard and have really long bootstraps."

Also, my folks got GED's and enlisted in the Navy and busted their butts serving. They couldn't pay for my education so I used state and federal aid. Education is outrageously costly today compared to 25 years ago.

[Bill A]

Originally Posted by Longboardr

Yes, the free education does stop at 12th grade.

Nothing is free. It costs plenty.

Originally Posted by Longboardr

Is the aid being made available to the illegals free? They don't have to pay it back with interest? That's not how I took what I read about it but I certainly could be wrong!

grants do not have to be repaid.

Originally Posted by MotoPD

A statistically significant greater likelihood does not mean everyone in the group shares that quality. You know that and are just sniping/trolling.

So, if subsidized college education is the right thing to do on average, why not provide it for everyone?

If we cannot afford to provide it for everyone, would't that indicate that he resource pool is finite?

If the resource pool is finite, why favor illegal aliens over American citizens?
Why divert funds from American students in favor of illegal non-citizens?

[Longboardr]

Originally Posted by Bill A

grants do not have to be repaid.

I'm not asking about the grants that are awarded on performance. I'm asking about the aid that would get them into college.

[Blind Spot]

Originally Posted by Bill A

Why divert funds from American students in favor of illegal non-citizens?

Again, how does this FAVOR illegals? They're not eligible for any aid in addition to their legal counterparts under this law.

At the very most it's neutral with respect to bias with regard to ELIGIBILITY for state aid. I cited an example already.

[owensfz1]

Somewhere along the line illegal doesn't mean the same term as I have always been taught. Illeagal, unlegal, not legal. If it is any of these IMO they are not eligible. I'm having to pay for my education the same as I paid for my kids to go to public school in which they did not attend. They attended private school in which I paid and then home schooled.

[drfous]

Originally Posted by Racer Boy

I didn't know that drfous was on the board anymore! He's still alive!

[Crispy]

Originally Posted by MotoPD

Keeping a minority group, legitimately present or not, on the outskirts of society will do nothing but increase crime, decrease tax base, and ensure future generations of poor, stupid, felonious idiots. Right or not, they are here, and any policy that makes us safer and richer should be embraced.

This reminds me of the anti-drug people. Prohibition has failed in a manner unrivaled by any government policy, but it persists, despite the black hole of money and lives.

While closing/tightly controlling the borders may do nothing for what's already taken place, wouldn't it put a cap on the expansion of both these "problems" for the future? Oh, and then there's that whole terrorism thing.

Lack of border control allows illegals, heroin, cocaine and (hopefully hypothetical) WMDs across way too easily IMO. Border control hurts no one. It remains "PC" while not only abating current problems, but also preventing potential disaster.

It's not like we're going to round up every illegal and "send 'em back where they come from". I guarantee it wouldn't go over well if we tried.
I think we should just take what we've got and give them a chance to succeed on their own merit. That means no free rides.
After that... let's make getting into the U.S. a little more like the V.I.P. line and little less like a street party.

[gixxerjasen]

Back to the keeping people out. How exactly is it that the Communists were able to construct walls that by and large kept people on one side of them for years on end, and many of those sections were NOT manned with machine guns....and yet we Americans cannot build a simple wall to do basically the same thing? How did we win that war again?

[Crispy]

Nobody really wanted to get into Russia. They weren't passing out free borscht. They couldn't afford to...