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Go Back   FZ1OA Message Board > FZ1 & Fazer Owners Association > Riding Gear

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Old 03-20-2018, 06:11 AM   #41
larry1911
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I've always bought Snell helmets, just because they're actually tested to standard, rather than relying on DOT's 'honor system.'

An interesting new testing protocol is 'SHARP'; it's a UK-based program that both tests helmets and publishes not only a 'pass/fail', but also specific scores for impact in different areas of the helmet. Small set of tested helmets to date, but another data point to consider.

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Old 03-20-2018, 10:33 AM   #42
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Side note: Over the weekend I saw a news article about a helmet protest ride, and the riders weren't wearing helmets in protest of helmet laws. One of them crashed and died from a head wound. Talk about irony!!

Remember when Indian Larry fell off of his bike, hit his head without a helmet and died?

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/01/ob...ies-at-55.html
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Old 03-20-2018, 12:20 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by larry1911 View Post
I've always bought Snell helmets, just because they're actually tested to standard, rather than relying on DOT's 'honor system.'

An interesting new testing protocol is 'SHARP'; it's a UK-based program that both tests helmets and publishes not only a 'pass/fail', but also specific scores for impact in different areas of the helmet. Small set of tested helmets to date, but another data point to consider.

Larry
This causes difficulty for us in the states. The sharp organization is based in the uk, and helmet manufacturers don’t always call each helmet the same name in all markets.

Some like snell, I like ECE, both have extensive testing criteria. And both are plenty safe.
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Old 03-20-2018, 06:00 PM   #44
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This causes difficulty for us in the states. The sharp organization is based in the uk, and helmet manufacturers don’t always call each helmet the same name in all markets.

Some like snell, I like ECE, both have extensive testing criteria. And both are plenty safe.
True, and product lines differ in different markets, but I've managed to Google equivalent models for most brands.

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Old 03-23-2018, 12:57 PM   #45
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I have been wearing Arai for many years. Surely they are a safe helmet and I shouldn't have to worry about it. Therefore I can't really contribute to this thread. I just figured considering the large investment I should be entitled to a post!
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Old 03-23-2018, 03:31 PM   #46
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There are many DOT only helmets that are priced north of $600 because they either have a drop down sun visor or are modular or both. Most have ECE rating.
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Old 03-23-2018, 04:41 PM   #47
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There are many DOT only helmets that are priced north of $600 because they either have a drop down sun visor or are modular or both. Most have ECE rating.
That first sentence might could use a little rearranging of words. Sounds like they are expensive because of those features but I think you meant they are DOT-only because of those features
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Old 03-23-2018, 05:16 PM   #48
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That first sentence might could use a little rearranging of words. Sounds like they are expensive because of those features but I think you meant they are DOT-only because of those features
I'd love an internal visor-love one. But the fact that none of them can pass Snell is a concern; the front of my head is pretty much my favorite part of it.


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Old 03-23-2018, 06:15 PM   #49
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I'd love an internal visor-love one. But the fact that none of them can pass Snell is a concern; the front of my head is pretty much my favorite part of it.


Larry
Then you have learned nothing from this thread.
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Old 03-23-2018, 06:42 PM   #50
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I'd love an internal visor-love one. But the fact that none of them can pass Snell is a concern; the front of my head is pretty much my favorite part of it.


Larry
You have concluded Snell is safer for your head. That's one opinion

Some of us are still with Harry Hurt and David Thom and other respected motorcycle safety scientists that disagree and have backed their arguments with data. To quote Dexter Ford, writing after Snell updated their M2010 standard to allow for softer helmets in line with DOT/ECE specs:

"Of course, a rider can also do what some outspoken scientists have recommended for years: simply choose a non-Snell-rated helmet."
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Old 03-23-2018, 07:04 PM   #51
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Then you have learned nothing from this thread.
On the contrary; I understood it all, and still prefer validation testing, rather then 'honor system' certification.

Folks debate the safety standards continually; having suffered through, and survived, what the ECE and DOT folks refer to as a '1%' crash' in a Snell approved helmet, my opinion is based on a logical assessment of the standards and MY personal risk factors.

Your mileage may vary, but the condescending tone is not appreciated.

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Old 03-23-2018, 07:46 PM   #52
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To be fair it probably should be mentioned that while the DOT doesn't pre-certify anything... NHTSA does pay for independent labs to go out and buy helmets and test them. In some years they've tested every model. They have the power to levy fines of thousands per unit sold, recall, etc.

Snell also tests helmets purchased retail for re-testing and addresses it with the manufacturer under their licensing agreement.

Both have had issues with counterfeiting so it's good to know how to identify such regardless of the standard you're shopping for.
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Old 03-23-2018, 07:54 PM   #53
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To be fair it probably should be mentioned that while the DOT doesn't pre-certify anything... NHTSA does pay for independent labs to go out and buy helmets and test them. In some years they've tested every model. They have the power to levy fines of thousands per unit sold, recall, etc.

Snell also tests helmets purchased retail for re-testing and addresses it with the manufacturer under their licensing agreement.

Both have had issues with counterfeiting so it's good to know how to identify such regardless of the standard you're shopping for.
In 2007, they tested around 40 helmets. I'm not lucky enough to trust odds like that, especially considering that something like a third of those failed.

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Old 03-24-2018, 06:59 AM   #54
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On the contrary; I understood it all, and still prefer validation testing, rather then 'honor system' certification.

Folks debate the safety standards continually; having suffered through, and survived, what the ECE and DOT folks refer to as a '1%' crash' in a Snell approved helmet, my opinion is based on a logical assessment of the standards and MY personal risk factors.

Your mileage may vary, but the condescending tone is not appreciated.

Larry
Sorry for the tone Larry, but your opinion is that snell is better, and many, including very respecting people in the moto world, think that is false.

Snell has certified Modular and I think they did approve 1 w/internal visor, but I may be thinking about Modular only, which is interesting they are able to pass a full face with a weaker front area. Heck, it surely goes against complete head protection when Open face helmets are safety rated.

Many exceed the ECE rating, which is rigorous and respected, so there’s no reason to design an USA-only model to get a Snell sticker. “The ECE rating is a global standard recognized by AMA and FIM” said Schuberth Marketing and PR Manager Sarah Schilke, “ECE is significant and stands on its own credibility.” Many other race organizations accept the ECE as well.

"most helmets with this feature shave out some of the protective foam in the helmet to fit the visor, SNELL won't even bother rating the helmet. With that said, the Shoei GT-AIR actually bumps out the shell so it can fit the internal visor AND keep the foam at the same thickness, IE: the protective foam is the same thickness around the helmet and NOT thinner where the protective visor fits. The other helmets Shoei has that are similar are SNELL rated so chances are that IF Snell rated the GT-AIR that it would be SNELL certified as well...but it's not."
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Old 03-24-2018, 07:39 AM   #55
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I lost faith in the ECE standards when I saw this helmet was certified. My most severe accident would have, if I'd been wearing this helmet, almost certainly killed me. Wearing a SNELL approved helmet, I was concussed, but otherwise unharmed. The ER doctor, hearing the details of my accident, couldn't believe ANY helmet had kept me alive.

People get hung up on the Hurt data and deceleration ratings, but ignore the validity and necessity of penetration testing for visors, multiple impact testing and other, less common, accident injury mechanisms.

I have been involved in several 'helmet uses' which involved multiple impacts, something ECE doesn't test for. I think they focus far too much on the median events, and disregard the outliers. I've experienced (as mentioned) an 'outlier' event myself, and prefer to have a helmet tested for multiple impacts and more serious penetration events.

It's eventually your head, and your choice-I don't attempt to convince people to even *wear* a helmet, since freedom of choice is an essential part of enjoying life. But not studying standards enough to make blanket statements about DOT being a 'better' standard than SNELL, especially when every SNELL approved helmet sold in the US is, by definition, also DOT approved, is something I believe is too narrow a view.

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Old 03-24-2018, 08:04 AM   #56
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Scorpion EXO-1000 has internal sun shield and snell rated. I was thinking of more, if I recall correctly they approved 3 internals and 1 modular back then, looks like snell took their 2005 standard listings off their website, only history for 2010 and above for street bike lids.

Scorpion EXO-1000 was 2007; when the EXO-1100 came out with same features, they only went with DOT and ECE.
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Old 03-24-2018, 10:44 AM   #57
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Scorpion EXO-1000 has internal sun shield and snell rated. I was thinking of more, if I recall correctly they approved 3 internals and 1 modular back then, looks like snell took their 2005 standard listings off their website, only history for 2010 and above for street bike lids.

Scorpion EXO-1000 was 2007; when the EXO-1100 came out with same features, they only went with DOT and ECE.
Keep in mind, Snell will only test a helmet if the manufacturer submits it; unlike ECE and DOT, which are mandatory, and SHARP, which is completely third-party, Snell only tests submitted helmets. The helmet not having Snell approval might mean the manufacturer didn't submit it for the certification.

Looking through the SHARP results, it does seem (just by casually reviewing, not statistically analyzing) that lids with the drop-down visors suffer in the forward/top rating, though.


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Old 03-24-2018, 11:21 AM   #58
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Keep in mind, Snell will only test a helmet if the manufacturer submits it; unlike ECE and DOT, which are mandatory, and SHARP, which is completely third-party, Snell only tests submitted helmets. The helmet not having Snell approval might mean the manufacturer didn't submit it for the certification.

Looking through the SHARP results, it does seem (just by casually reviewing, not statistically analyzing) that lids with the drop-down visors suffer in the forward/top rating, though.


Larry
But snell won't approve anything unless the helmet company pays them, right?

"How much does Snell certification cost and who pays?

Snell-direct-cost is only a small part of cost related to making Snell certified helmets. Once a helmet has been accepted into the Snell certification program, the Foundation charges the manufacturer for test fees, acquisition cost of random samples, and for each Snell Certification label that goes into each certified helmet. The majority of the cost is what a manufacturer must invest in a good quality system in terms of hardware, equipment, and personnel to maintain the consistency and reliability of producing good helmets. However, these costs along with every other production cost get passed along to you the consumer."

Sure would be interesting to know how much, and also what manufactures submit their products and what models fail.
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Old 03-24-2018, 12:14 PM   #59
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But snell won't approve anything unless the helmet company pays them, right?
Spend 60 cents per helmet and increase the price $50. Winning! For many marketing and money explain Snell's willingness to ignore available crash data to modify their standard.


Would love more data. Anecdotes about what helmet one would have survived in or not don't do much to persuade. Have fallen off on street and track with helmet impact but without telemetry meaningless for my helmet choice.
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Old 03-24-2018, 04:05 PM   #60
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But snell won't approve anything unless the helmet company pays them, right?

"How much does Snell certification cost and who pays?

Snell-direct-cost is only a small part of cost related to making Snell certified helmets. Once a helmet has been accepted into the Snell certification program, the Foundation charges the manufacturer for test fees, acquisition cost of random samples, and for each Snell Certification label that goes into each certified helmet. The majority of the cost is what a manufacturer must invest in a good quality system in terms of hardware, equipment, and personnel to maintain the consistency and reliability of producing good helmets. However, these costs along with every other production cost get passed along to you the consumer."

Sure would be interesting to know how much, and also what manufactures submit their products and what models fail.

The manufacturer pays regardless of whether the submitted helmet passes or doesn't; hard to attribute a subversive profit motive to a non-profit entity that charges you regardless of whether you pass or fail...

I'm assuming that providing the SHARP-like data on who passed, and how much, would really cut down on manufacturers using the Snell standard; in that sense, a publicly funded organization will always have an advantage. But look at the SHARP database after several years, and you'll see the limitations of government funded programs as well.

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