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Old 02-16-2019, 08:23 AM   #41
SoCalFZRider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longeze View Post
... Learn ALL the positions on the instrument -including thumb position.
You issue tough lessons! Completely understand why this is necessary. Don't know what the thumb position is unless you are referring to playing at the nut and open strings. Coming from a short scale I started on the jazz at the 5th fret, then have been working my way to the lower positions. The 7th position is plenty playable, the 8th and higher I'm finding more difficult.

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Originally Posted by longeze View Post
... walk 10ths ...
You mean walk to the 10th note in a (diatonic) scale, i.e. the 3rd in the next octave?

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Originally Posted by longeze View Post
... different timbre... dead ...
Even with my crappy hearing this has been pretty obvious, but couldn't tell you which string timbre fit the music better.

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Originally Posted by longeze View Post
... a Precision bass has a shorter neck than a Jazz bass.
My research showed both had a 34-in scale length, although it appears the P bass body is shorter.
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Old 02-16-2019, 04:21 PM   #42
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You issue tough lessons! Don't know what the thumb position is unless you are referring to playing at the nut and open strings.
Whatever it takes to get the job done I say... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumb_position

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Originally Posted by SoCalFZRider View Post
Coming from a short scale I started on the jazz at the 5th fret, then have been working my way to the lower positions. The 7th position is plenty playable, the 8th and higher I'm finding more difficult.
I'm not sure we're talking apples & apples, so I'm not understanding what you're saying. I've never seen a bass neck with 8 positions. That's more than the neck accommodates on the instruments I'm familiar with. Each position defined by the move of your hand up the neck as you run out of fingers, is how I know to identify them. Possibly you're referring to each degree of the chromatic scale on the fingerboard(starting at the nut) on the E string as a position?

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You mean walk to the 10th note in a (diatonic) scale, i.e. the 3rd in the next octave?
Close! I was referring to playing a 10th interval along with the root. Eg. Play "C" on the E string with your thumb and an "E" on the G string at the same time. If you sound them together, you get a 10th chord. Walking lines like that is a great way to fill in the bottom when playing in a trio or quartet when someone is soloing(taking a ride). ;)

10ths Are also ubiquitous in funk & disco music. Players jump across the strings to get the 10th. In this eg. you could bar the E string with ur index finger instead of ur thumb. Same technique applies playing double stops or triads either in unison or as broken arps - another rudiment.

Be that as it may, I mentioned 10ths only to offer you another practical application for practicing single string scales & arps. When U play by damping either of the lower 2 strings with your thumb, you'll be there forever if you have to think about each note location and u'll find ur too slow changing positions to play that technique above a ballad tempo.

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Even with my crappy hearing this has been pretty obvious, but couldn't tell you which string timbre fit the music better.
It's obvious to YOU because you have "big ears" regardless of your hearing loss. You know how to listen. Many people (even "musicians") don't. As to which to use, it's a matter of taste-at least in part, I suppose. If you need to sustain a note for a long period of time & don't want to restrike it, it's useful to know where to get it, quickly without thinking about it. More directly to your comment, as an obvious example, you might want to play an open string instead of a fingered note of the same pitch in that context. It's that principle I'm referring to, except that the choice is between 2 or 3 notes of the same pitch that are both fingered. I hope my explanation is clear.

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My research showed both had a 34-in scale length, although it appears the P bass body is shorter.
That's interesting! I had a friend with a Jazz bass who let me play around with his now and then. That's my experience with them, other than playing a rare few notes on them in music stores when bored & waiting for a friend.

I can say with certainty, that it was common practice back in the day(pre-CBS) to put Precision necks on Jazz basses & vice versa. Perhaps it was because Jazz and Precision necks were different widths? Either way, it's my recollection that the Jazz neck was more tiring to play and required greater stretch of the fingers. If you say it isn't possible & have researched it, then go with that, my recollection could well be flawed - I'm a KB player after all... & an aging one at that ;)

My main point to you was, that short scale necks are easier to learn on(and play faster), but will require some adjustment to switch to a long scale neck later. Pick your poison. My disposition is to encourage people learning an instrument to remove as many physical barriers to learning as possible, so they can stay relaxed(& practice) for longer periods of time, while concentrating on the musical objectives rather than physical hurdles. Take it for what it's worth... and know that my intent is to assist and support your efforts(& others with similar objectives - should they be lurking), as best I can.
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Old 02-16-2019, 07:18 PM   #43
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... Possibly you're referring to each degree of the chromatic scale on the fingerboard(starting at the nut) on the E string as a position? ...

short scale necks ...
Position? - Basically, or simply which fret you're starting on. This is what the first book I bought teaches. "G" on the "E" string would be called 3rd position.

I like these "higher positions" because the frets are closer together, and it allows playing full octaves in I, IV, V chord progressions (among others) without significant hand shifting on the fretboard. Hence, "7th position" enables playing B scale octave blues in this manner. The flip side is there's another string to jump over, and you start getting into those dead notes with what sounds to me like a "darker" timbre as compared to a "brighter" timbre with B played on the A string. Of course 12-bar B blues over the full octave can be played starting at the 2nd fret on the A string and going lower in pitch for E and F# without a lot of hand shifting. B-flat or A scale blues doesn't have the same luxury.

Short scale necks? - yes, much easier to play. Fender Japan made some 32 inch scale basses that from what I understand aren't available new any longer. Fender P bass does look like it's shorter overall than a J bass.

Last edited by SoCalFZRider; 02-16-2019 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 02-16-2019, 11:44 PM   #44
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Position? - Basically, or simply which fret you're starting on. This is what the first book I bought teaches. "G" on the "E" string would be called 3rd position.

I like these "higher positions" because the frets are closer together, and it allows playing full octaves in I, IV, V chord progressions (among others) without significant hand shifting on the fretboard. Hence, "7th position" enables playing B scale octave blues in this manner. The flip side is there's another string to jump over, and you start getting into those dead notes with what sounds to me like a "darker" timbre as compared to a "brighter" timbre with B played on the A string. Of course 12-bar B blues over the full octave can be played starting at the 2nd fret on the A string and going lower in pitch for E and F# without a lot of hand shifting. B-flat or A scale blues doesn't have the same luxury.

Short scale necks? - yes, much easier to play. Fender Japan made some 32 inch scale basses that from what I understand aren't available new any longer. Fender P bass does look like it's shorter overall than a J bass.
After reading your comments about positions, I Googled it to see if I could learn about the numbering system you were referencing. It seems there's been an explosion in new, better ways to re-invent the wheel - ugh! I used to run into that with piano literature now & then, when every other guy had a "new" jazz method and a "better" way to write a chord chart. I'm a product of a traditional(classical) educational curriculum. My frame of reference reflects that. The electric bass players I know, use four fingers(1/fret) and refer to positions using the convention I previously described. 1st position, 3rd finger would reference the G fret on the E string - & 2nd position, 3rd finger would reference the B fret on the E string - in your egs. & so on. If you were using your thumb or a different finger to dampen a note, you might say "2nd pos, 3rd finger using my thumb"(or whatever finger employed) to communicate that you're out of position when playing that note.

Regardless of nomenclature or semantics, as long as you're comfortable with whatever system you're using, enough to relate to the curriculum you're dealing with, that's the main thing I should think. If you want others to readily understand what you're talking about, that's a different matter. I didn't buy your book. Counting all the frets up & down the neck is too much work for me, but referencing note names along with something like "above or below the octave" works well enough & is perfectly clear.

If you were my student, and asked me what's most important to learn given the interests you've expressed, I'd tell you that aside from the technique drills already discussed, learn the major & minor scales, the pentatonic blues scale, 2-5-1 and 3-6-2-5-1 blues progressions and the circle of 5ths. That'll get you a good running start on it. Technique wise, understand that moving your right hand closer/further from the bridge has a major effect on tone & clarity. Different styles require you to play in different locations including very close to the bridge as well as directly over the fingerboard. Your main function in a group context is to hold down the bottom and keep time - play accordingly. It's more important to be solid rather than flashy. Learn to sing your lines in your head an instant before you play them. Work on ear training to improve your relative pitch. Learn to play as many styles as you can, even if you don't care for them. It'll improve your playing in ways you wouldn't expect. As you probably know, learning music amounts to learning chords & scales and applying them in the context of the primary components of rhythm, melody & harmony. To do that well, you need to develop your ear and aesthetic sensibilities as best you can. Learning to play through visualization when you don't have an instrument in your hand, and singing along with everything(if only in your head) will really help you develop faster.

Here's a few links that I thought you might be interested in... lots of great stuff there:

https://www.talkbass.com/forums/technique-bg.21/

https://www.talkingbass.net/awesome-music-theory-bass/

https://www.talkingbass.net/lessonmap/
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:51 AM   #45
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Interchanging Fender necks is usually just a preference in feel. Sometimes it was done to affect tone (neck material, etc...). I have a super nice Precision because of the neck which is just wonderful. I prefer a late model Precision neck due to its width and shape. Likewise, I prefer a Jazz body. I've been temped to order a Custom Shop bass from Fender with a Jazz body, mixed pickups (combo Jazz and Precision) with a Precision neck. Would love that.

Best,
Ron
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Old 02-17-2019, 12:28 PM   #46
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If you were my student,...
Appreciate your time and effort to spell all this out. We seem to be on the same page here, have done all this except for studying the 2-5-1 and 3-6-2-5-1 blues progressions. Recently have been playing around with the 5-2-1.

Early on when I was learning note locations, I decided to look at playing from a rhythm perspective. Still do that. Carry the rhythm first, outline the chords and propel the harmony 2nd.

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Interchanging Fender necks is usually just a preference in feel. Sometimes it was done to affect tone (neck material, etc...). I have a super nice Precision because of the neck which is just wonderful. I prefer a late model Precision neck due to its width and shape. Likewise, I prefer a Jazz body. I've been temped to order a Custom Shop bass from Fender with a Jazz body, mixed pickups (combo Jazz and Precision) with a Precision neck. Would love that.

Best,
Ron
Fender makes several neck shapes. I have a Geddy Lee that gets really thin at the nut. It plays well closer to the body, ptobably too thin otherwise.

Go for the custom! If you're thinking about it, my brother says don't wait. Bought my first bass after that comment.
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Old 02-17-2019, 04:35 PM   #47
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Happy to share what little I know... If you've already covered most of what I suggested, you might want to check out the 3 diminisheds, bebop scale, tritone sub, quartal harmony, +5 voice leading & chord ext's - Ray Brown liked to walk from root to 9th on down for eg. That body of knowledge(along with harmonic & melodic minors & chromaticism) should pretty much cover the harmonic rudiments. If you don't have it already, might want to pick up(or download) a copy of "The Real Book". It's the gigging (jazz) musicians bible.

It's difficult to know your level of proficiency just from reading a few sentences in a thread. Maybe post an mp3 or utube link? It'd be great to hear you guys play.

Ron, the custom sounds cool! If I ever get another axe, it'll probably be a Chapman stick. I always wanted to try one.
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Old 02-17-2019, 04:44 PM   #48
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I’ve not played one but I have had my hands on one (Mike Huckabee showed me his in detail) but Pat Wilkins is supposed to be the end all/cat’s ass of bass makers.

https://www.wilkinsguitars.com/

Peter Cetera turned Huckabee and a few other guys I know here in Nashville onto Pat and they swear by him and his rigs.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=01m-RswTMmA

I’ve called Pat and talked to him a couple of times and he is super. Love the guy. I took his recommendation for pickups and got a set of Howard Ulyate pickups for my Precision. They work...

http://www.ulyateinstruments.com/bas...style-pickups/

This “string” (pardon the pun) inspired me to tune up my rig. It’s been a few months since I’ve checked the truss rod and intonation. Super happy to have done it. I’m in good shape now.

Best,
Ron
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Old 02-17-2019, 05:23 PM   #49
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I was stupid lucky growing up here in Nashville. My dad worked with Joe Osborn for decades so I got to see him in action. Same with Duck Dunn. I got to see Bob Babbitt in studio and talk bass with him a few years ago before he passed. Just awesome and super nice guy. Lesser known but stupid great bassists here that I saw a lot were guys like Bob Moore and Henry Strzelecki. Steve Mackey is incredible. He toured with my sister for a long time. Dad worked with Carol Kaye many times but I never got to meet her.

Best,
Ron
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Old 02-17-2019, 06:45 PM   #50
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Very cool Ron. Stupid lucky that you turned into a super opportunity.

Proficiency longeze? Bottom of the scale. Knowledge base is way ahead of skill. Put me in a sound mix and keep the slider down low, I can sync up to the drummer with a lot of roots, a few 5ths, triad tones, and flat 7ths without totally embarrassing myself as long as the chord progressions aren't too complex and the tempo isn't too fast. At my age and only a limited percussion background, learning an instrument is certainly more challenging than it would be for a 17-year old. Been at it for a less than a couple years with some long breaks in there, guessing under 200 hours on the strings.
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Old 02-17-2019, 07:00 PM   #51
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Thanks for the props but I was just supporting my dad. He would need me to bring him additional guitars or food or just whatever. He was in such demand that he was always pressed for time and everything for us was a family effort. So I toted a lot of guitars and did whatever was needed around the studio. Got to know so many of the players just because of proximity, not a special effort on my part. And we had everyone you could imagine in our home - John Sebastian, Levon Helm, Robbie Robertson, Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel - it was just our normal with dad doing business and adding a personal touch by inviting people in. Made for one hell of an education, I can tell you that.

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Ron
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Old 02-17-2019, 10:25 PM   #52
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Very cool Ron. Stupid lucky that you turned into a super opportunity.

... Knowledge base is way ahead of skill.
LOL... yeah get in line ;) There's a reason I threw in the towel on music for a career in engineering. Those who can't do and all that. Sounds like Ron's family got it nailed tho eh?

Pretty heavy company: Babbit, Dunn, Kaye ... It's a who's who of legendary bassists FFS. Talk about youth being wasted on the young... 'Ol Ron probably took the opportunity to ask them if they had any cool bikes. When he found out they didn't ride, likely asked his pop if he could get on home for chow ;)~

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...guessing under 200 hours on the strings.
Sounds like you're overdue for a string boil ;) If it provides you any incentive, yrs ago I watched a Corea video demonstrating his practice methods. He breaks down each challenge to its smallest do-able chunk & works from there. He's totally goal oriented & focused. It's remarkable how much can be accomplished dedicating 15-20mins daily on a consistent basis, when working that way & being disciplined about it. It's not that what he's doing is new or original, but what's inspiring(to me) is, that he doesn't allow himself to wander from the task until it's complete and he can perform it - at whatever tempo required to be successful(or to have a "win" as he calls it). That changed my outlook.

You previously asked about playing 10ths. In the video Ron just posted, at 0:54, 1:18 and 1:28, you'll hear/see that bass player demonstrating the technique.
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Old Yesterday, 08:03 AM   #53
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I threw in the towel after 35 years in engineering for a music career. Good thing I don't need to make any $$ at it.

Yeah, steady focused practice goes a long way. Every tool that gets put in the box adds up. After a while, there's lots to pick from, and a wrench for nearly every application. And there's always room for another one. The good and bad about music - it's infinite.
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Old Yesterday, 12:04 PM   #54
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Please don't take any of my comments as name dropping or bragging by any measure. My folks were as humble as anyone you ever met. It isn't in us to think we are better than anyone or to show others up. I don't share what I grew up with very often or in much detail. With some folks here who sound like they know the difference, I thought I'd chime in for those who would likely really appreciate.

Best,
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Old Yesterday, 01:16 PM   #55
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I threw in the towel after 35 years in engineering for a music career...
LMAO!!!

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... Every tool that gets put in the box adds up. After a while, there's lots to pick from, and a wrench for nearly every application. And there's always room for another one. The good and bad about music - it's infinite.
Great analogy.. I thought my phillips might come in handy for you - I use it all the time )

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Please don't take any of my comments as name dropping or bragging... I don't share what I grew up with very often or in much detail..
No worries about that on my account. Your anecdote made for a fascinating read. Thanks for sharing! No offense, but I think I might've had the hots a bit for your sister at one point, if she's who I thiink she is. The bass player on her tune with dancing in the title, is an awesome player! Did you ever meet/talk to Richard Tee(RIP) or any of those CTI guys?
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Old Yesterday, 01:29 PM   #56
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Yep, my sister is Deana. Her bass player back in the day was Steve Mackey. He is a stupid great player and all around good Joe. Never had the pleasure of meeting the guys you mentioned that I remember.
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Old Yesterday, 01:57 PM   #57
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Yep, my sister is Deana. Her bass player back in the day was Steve Mackey. He is a stupid great player and all around good Joe. Never had the pleasure of meeting the guys you mentioned that I remember.
I remember a prior thread where you mentioned Deana. Looked her up back then. Yep, she sure is beautiful - amazing voice too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up06CryWQpE
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Old Yesterday, 08:03 PM   #58
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This was always on my short list. Starting at 1:10 thru to the end is a nice demo of tonal range, flexibility & sustain. Even listening to this guy play it, I still want to buy one.

youtube.com/watch?v=t_4vYpk9JNY

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Yep, my sister is Deana. Her bass player back in the day was Steve Mackey...
I was trying to keep that on the D/L for you. How remarkable to have one, let alone two members of the same family achieve such extraordinary success in such an elite business.

Mackey: I love those guys that sit in the pocket & still play the shit out of the groove. I'm not much of a C&W guy, but music is music and that guy plays great!

When I started out with KB's I tried to pattern my playing after guys like Bob James, Joe Sample, Richard Tee & Chester Thompson. Then I found fusion and Corea became my primary influence. I asked about Tee & them because Paul Simon worked with those guys("Stuff") a lot. FWIW, I was also into the guys playing B3 & stomping peddles - Jimmy McGriff, Groove Holmes & the like.

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Old Yesterday, 08:21 PM   #59
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I was stupid lucky growing up here in Nashville. My dad worked with Joe Osborn for decades so I got to see him in action. Same with Duck Dunn. I got to see Bob Babbitt in studio and talk bass with him a few years ago before he passed. Just awesome and super nice guy. Lesser known but stupid great bassists here that I saw a lot were guys like Bob Moore and Henry Strzelecki. Steve Mackey is incredible. He toured with my sister for a long time. Dad worked with Carol Kaye many times but I never got to meet her.

Best,
Ron
Envious. That's a pretty awesome list. After Jamerson, Dunn and Babbitt were my favs. Then there's all the jazz greats. Gordon Edwards, Jerry Scheff... ok they're all my favs.
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Old Today, 04:07 AM   #60
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This was always on my short list. Starting at 1:10 thru to the end is a nice demo of tonal range, flexibility & sustain. Even listening to this guy play it, I still want to buy one.

youtube.com/watch?v=t_4vYpk9JNY

I was trying to keep that on the D/L for you. How remarkable to have one, let alone two members of the same family achieve such extraordinary success in such an elite business.

Mackey: I love those guys that sit in the pocket & still play the shit out of the groove. I'm not much of a C&W guy, but music is music and that guy plays great!

When I started out with KB's I tried to pattern my playing after guys like Bob James, Joe Sample, Richard Tee & Chester Thompson. Then I found fusion and Corea became my primary influence. I asked about Tee & them because Paul Simon worked with those guys("Stuff") a lot. FWIW, I was also into the guys playing B3 & stomping peddles - Jimmy McGriff, Groove Holmes & the like.
Mackey doesn't talk about it much but he is a graduate of the Berkley School of Music. So he's been trained on everything. And he has played with everybody. Love the guy. He's family to us.

Paul's groups were interesting and generally didn't overlap. After the split with Artie, he moved onto a completely different set of musicians. Artie used the same crew of dad, Joe Osborn, Hal Blaine, Larry Knechtel etc... for the Angel Clare album, his first solo gig. Dad and Paul stayed in touch through the years and did a handful of live dates but no more studio work after Bridge that I know of.

Best,
Ron
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"The Few. The Proud. The Marines!"

2003 Blue FZ1 - Ivan's MB Jet kit, Akrapovic, GOEC w/remote and GPS, 07 R1 fork conversion w/6 pot brakes, R1 master cylinder, R1 rear wheel w/R6 caliper, Penske shock, Dirt Road seat, AIS removed, HID and LED lights, full Givi luggage, Galfer lines, chain oiler, Rizoma bar, cat-eye turn signals above headlights, grip heaters, factory lower fairings, air box mod w/high flow filter, Cometic thin head gasket, FazerPhil large gas tank mod (in progress).
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