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Go Back   FZ1OA Message Board > FZ1 & Fazer Owners Association > Exhausts, Carburetion & Performance > Gen 1 Exhausts, Carburetion & Performance

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Old 08-30-2017, 09:28 PM   #101
YamahaMan444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longeze View Post
Fair enough, you take what you like & leave the rest... Some people don't understand the design process or the compromises being made, so I put it out there. I didn't drill into the basket(although I probably will), I drilled a small hole in the plug in the center of the shaft - the 1 that falls out on some peoples bikes causing problems. Yeah, my launch technique is no doubt poor but I try to be off of it by the 60' mark & I don't rev much past peak torque. The plates get hot because I don't wait long enough for them to cool. I get impatient. "...having to read" - lol
I've never drag raced in my life. FWIW.

Like I said, you got some cool stuff in the books ya write
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Old 08-31-2017, 06:42 AM   #102
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For the record, 4669 words in response to my post implying that a little brevity might not go amiss in your missives.

Fella, you don't need to explain yourself to me or anybody else here. We get you.

And wavy lines ... we get those, too.
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Old 08-31-2017, 11:45 AM   #103
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For the record, 4669 words in response to my post implying that a little brevity might not go amiss in your missives....
And wavy lines ... we get those, too.
It's nice that you care enough to count. In fairness though, some of those are probably yours ) Your point is well taken though ;)

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You DRILLED into something in the clutch basket. Then said, don't do that, because you're having issues.
Ya don't swing ya don't hit. I want to make sure nobody else tries it on a street bike.

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Maybe post this up on the FB forum for the nooby masses ...
Oh hell no LOL. This is the only forum I post to...which probably explains a lot :

Last edited by longeze; 09-13-2017 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 09-01-2017, 09:20 AM   #104
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This is my favorite thread. Now it's just got a little action on top of all the information. It's like Lord of the Rings in here.

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Old 09-01-2017, 09:45 AM   #105
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A dab of silicone will put it right.
You might want to rethink that. There's oil pressure on that plug and if it were my motor, I wouldn't want the risk of the silicone dab getting forced off and then wandering around the oilways.

Sod's Law applies.
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Old 09-01-2017, 10:00 PM   #106
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I've never drag raced in my life. FWIW.

Like I said, you got some cool stuff in the books ya write
Thanks man .... I'm glad we're "cool"

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Originally Posted by Mr.Fixit View Post
This is my favorite thread. Now it's just got a little action on top of all the information. It's like Lord of the Rings in here.

That's awesome - Thanks so much for saying that! LotR LoL...It's not Mayweather v McGregor or anything but the tickets are cheap huh? Anyway, welcome here!

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Originally Posted by Falcon 269 View Post
You might want to rethink that. There's oil pressure on that plug and if it were my motor, I wouldn't want the risk of the silicone dab getting forced off and then wandering around the oilways.

Sod's Law applies.
Good catch!

Last edited by longeze; 09-13-2017 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 09-10-2017, 04:33 AM   #107
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I like your posts. Keep them coming.
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Old 09-10-2017, 10:04 AM   #108
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I like your posts. Keep them coming.
Thanks for taking the time to let me know.. I appreciate that!
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Old 09-27-2017, 12:18 PM   #109
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Carburetors, like God, integrate empirically.
Engineer!
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Old 09-29-2017, 10:46 AM   #110
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do you have any dyno results after your mods?
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Old 09-29-2017, 11:04 AM   #111
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That surely would be a good fact about a mod.
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Old 11-11-2017, 07:15 PM   #112
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do you have any dyno results after your mods?
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Originally Posted by fermic37 View Post
That surely would be a good fact about a mod.
I agree - I'm curious as well, but mostly to find out how close my datalogger measures torque/hp as compared to a dyno. I know I said I'd post dyno numbers this year, but if I put my bike on a dyno now, I'd only be doing it because I said I would in this thread. I hear ya though... it really bugs me when I'm interested in some mods guys are doing and they say they'll post their dyno results, then either fail to follow through or post up with ambiguous results and excuses. It was pretty frustrating when I was trying to assess performance improvements or lack thereof from filling ports with epoxy.

IVAN WAS RIGHT!!! ...sort of. The fact is that my bike isn't in a state of tune to make the dyno numbers meaningful other than to confirm that my fueling is all over "the map"(sry). For those of you who've read this - my 1st installment of the "LOTR trilogy" in its entirety, you know that Ivan claimed that Hindle exhausts are only suited to drag racing - if that, because of their horrible reversion characteristics. You - the faithful, also know that I've been pretty happy with my Hindle full system and had not found any problem with reversion whatsoever.

As it turns out, there are no reversion issues ..as long as you don't whack the throttle wide open to the stop. Since I ride like a fairly sane person(most of the time), reversion hasn't been an issue. If I crack the throttle 70~80% (WAG) open, I see near perfect fueling under acceleration ~ 12.5 on the ol O2 gauge. Anything past 70~80% throttle and the mixture goes 4.5 points rich every time - YIKES!!! My air filter gets soaked as well - sure sign of my arch enemy reversion rearing it's ugly head. Now before you start making noises about how I've got my head up my ass, consider that I'm running taller gears than I was and dropped my bars and moved them forward to put more of my considerable weight over the front wheel. That is to say that if I whacked the throttle wide open, in its prior configuration I'd be laying on my back on the ground, so reversion was never an issue. Since I had to be slower and more progressive to get to WOT there were no issues. In it's present configuration, I can be much more aggressive with throttle application, so...

You know that article I shared in one of my previous posts? The one with all the math to skip through that considered intake behavior when the throttle was open > 70% ? Well, for anyone who skimmed it, you can see now why I think it's relevant. It's entirely possible that my altered cam timing is causing some of these issues, but I love the additional bottom end torque I'm getting, so I'll be trying some exhaust mods 1st to see what I get.

To add to the confusion I've been working on an intercooling system as well which will further alter the mixture requirements. Before I can mess with that, I need to get the baseline fueling under control. If anyone is curious, I'm adding a resonant chamber to my exhaust in an effort to get the reversion pulses under control at problem RPMs. Most guys use that technology to get rid of annoying exhaust drone, but I think the principle can be used to cancel the problem reversion waves in a manner akin to noise cancelling headphones. ;) I'm making it tunable so I'll be able to mess around with it endessly chasing my tail looking for tuning perfection lol. I figure that even if I'm wrong, my bike will be pretty damn quiet while cruising down the interstate )

My backup plan is to join pipes 1&2 and 3&4 together with small 3/4" tubes placed ~10" down from the cylinder head, as the other header manufacturers do, to deal with the problem.

As to intercooling and such, I'm still somewhat torn between water/methanol injection and running a proper intercooler, with the edge going to water/meth. The main problem is finding space large enough for a plenum to place a heat exchanger without restricting airflow. I don't really want to make a huge project out of it all, so the water/meth tech looks to be easier to implement, with little need to significantly modify my bike. To that end, I've put together most of the parts I need to make that happen. Feeling how hard my bike pulls in this 40 degree weather, I can't wait to have that performance available year round!
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Old 11-12-2017, 12:20 PM   #113
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Given your mods Longeze, all else being equal, would you retain concerns over reversion if you were running stock exhaust with EXUP vs the Hindle? I've thought of exactly what you've described above on tying 1-2, 3-4 exhaust together 10-12 inches from the head with cross pipes. I've demurred on the need given I have EXUP and will probably retain it.

Best,
Ron
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Old 11-12-2017, 03:13 PM   #114
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Have you ever thought of going with a turbo setup ... If you have ever road a properly set up turbo bike you would be very sir prized it how much power there is at all RPMs
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Old 11-13-2017, 08:22 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by rdcusmc View Post
Given your mods Longeze, all else being equal, would you retain concerns over reversion if you were running stock exhaust with EXUP vs the Hindle? I've thought of exactly what you've described above on tying 1-2, 3-4 exhaust together 10-12 inches from the head with cross pipes. I've demurred on the need given I have EXUP and will probably retain it.

Best,
Ron
Ron, If your airfilter stays dry, I wouldn't worry about reversion with a stock exhaust. OTOH, I read in your other thread that you have ambitions of raising compression. I'd dump the stock exhaust & exup 1st. Trying to improve pumping efficiency(raising compression) on an engine that's already being suffocated by an exhaust restriction isn't the way I tend to go about things, but that's why there's chocolate & vanilla I suppose.

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Have you ever thought of going with a turbo setup ... If you have ever road a properly set up turbo bike you would be very sir prized it how much power there is at all RPMs
Hi Wizbyu.. I haven't seen you around ;) I thought a lot about putting a turbo on my bike before I raised compression and all that. I have a turbo that would be about the right size, just sitting around, so it was really tempting.

What put me off is the need to dissipate the additional heat. Not just on the intake side, but from the exhaust restriction as well. There was an overseas guy who put a turbo on his Gen1(I was lusting after it - lol) and sold it for a song. I believe there's video of it on youtube if you search around. I would love to put a supercharger on my bike, but the cost is crazy. So, I'm trying to chip away at the problem 1 or 2 hp at a time and see where I land when I'm done making chips )
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Old 11-13-2017, 10:03 PM   #116
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Longeze,
I think your point is very well taken. My concern dumping the Exup Is losing the bottom end With that loss being greater than any gains I would see from the compression bump. I’m still strategizing here and I generally think the compression bump is a good thing. That said it doesn’t operate in a vacuum but is rather part of a chain that I would like to optimize. So, this is still a conversation to hopefully arrive at the right combo of mods to improve what I have.

Best
Ron
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:05 PM   #117
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Longeze,
...My concern dumping the Exup Is losing the bottom end With that loss being greater than any gains I would see from the compression bump...

Best
Ron
Few(nearly none) who have put a full exhaust on their bike and deleted the exup have posted any negative consequence to the change. IIRC, it may have been Falcon that was the lone exception. I agonized over it as well(having read all the posts from ex-up stalwarts), but found my concerns were unwarranted.
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Old 11-14-2017, 12:15 AM   #118
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As it happens, I got a deal too good to miss on an Akrapovic full system so I ran that for several years. Prior to getting the full system, I was running with Ivan's MB kit, modified intake stubs and airbox lid and a BMC air filter. Stock headers with EXUP, Mivv GP can.

No dyno information, just seat of the pants impressions of the two set ups. With the Akra full system, the power delivery off-idle to around 4k rpm was softer than with the EXUP-equipped stock system. No flat spots as such, pulled cleanly but not as hard as before.

From 4k rpm upwards the power and revs built more rapidly, hit harder and continued right to the redline. Any comparison dyno chart (see Ivan's site, for example) will show this clearly.

A year or so back I sold the Akra headers and reverted to stock with EXUP along with the Akra link pipe and can. The stronger bottom end is back and for regular road-riding I prefer it to the full system. I might be down a few bhp at peak rpm but I seldom used that on the road.

The key words in that last statement are regular road riding and I prefer it.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:41 PM   #119
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As it happens, I got a deal too good to miss on an Akrapovic full system so I ran that for several years. Prior to getting the full system, I was running with Ivan's MB kit, modified intake stubs and airbox lid and a BMC air filter. Stock headers with EXUP, Mivv GP can.

No dyno information, just seat of the pants impressions of the two set ups. With the Akra full system, the power delivery off-idle to around 4k rpm was softer than with the EXUP-equipped stock system. No flat spots as such, pulled cleanly but not as hard as before.

From 4k rpm upwards the power and revs built more rapidly, hit harder and continued right to the redline. Any comparison dyno chart (see Ivan's site, for example) will show this clearly.

A year or so back I sold the Akra headers and reverted to stock with EXUP along with the Akra link pipe and can. The stronger bottom end is back and for regular road-riding I prefer it to the full system. I might be down a few bhp at peak rpm but I seldom used that on the road.

The key words in that last statement are regular road riding and I prefer it.
So my question, what can be the reasonable result from bumping the compression from EXACTLY this setup (as it is what I have).

Best
Ron
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:40 PM   #120
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So my question, what can be the reasonable result from bumping the compression from EXACTLY this setup (as it is what I have).

Best
Ron
You know, I've thought about how/if to answer this longer than I probably should have. Please understand that I mean no disrespect with this answer but I'm gonna be "straight up" with you for a minute... I think it's great that you want to experiment & mod your bike, but there's no substitute for due diligence right? Rhetorical questions: Have you honestly read everything you can find about the mods you want to do? Have you searched & read all the posts on the R1 site as well? Have you read all that Ivan posted on the subject here and elsewhere? I encourage you to do so if you haven't already. Your question has been asked and answered many times over. The answer isn't going to change, but human nature being what it is(I'm the same way) we seek out the answer we want to hear.

My impression is that you don't want to spend the money on a full system, but would like to pick up some bottom end torque anyway. I've posted my result as have several others who have raised compression and mounted full systems - all very positive as regards increased bottom end torque. What YOU want to do flies in the face of over 7 decades of the worlds knowledge and experience. There's a reason people install low restriction filters and free flowing exhausts as the first modifications done. Those are the points of greatest restriction to the flow. The engine is a pump. You want torque? It's all about how much air you can pump in a given amount of time - end of story. There's no other magic. Ivan acknowledges that the Akra system isnt the best configuration for retaining low end torque. Other full systems do better in that regard, Yosh being 1 of them as I recall.

Ron, here is the answer that I think you want to hear: If you are determined to retain the ex-up and want to do "something" to raise compression, then I think you should install an R1 stock gasket and call it good. I believe it's slightly thinner than the FZ1 gasket but not enough to warrant re-timing the cams. Whether it's worth the trouble is for you to decide. U might pick up 2 or 3 hp. If you angle mill the head and/or install an even thinner gasket & mess with the cam timing, you could probably get more benefit, but it's a fair amount of time and money to obtain the equivalent of what could be had from bolting on a PROPERly tuned full exhaust for your purpose. Combine both sets of mods and you get more than either one of those mods would produce individually. If you were local, I'd let you ride my bike around the block, but since you're not, you'll just have to take my(and others) words for it - or not.

This is my preferred answer to your question:
As you raise compression, you can "reasonably" expect that you'll gain torque until the flow rate to/from the combustion chamber exceeds the capacity of everything around it to accommodate it, starting at the point of greatest restriction. At that point, the engine will fall flat-likely at a lower rpm than it otherwise would... until you remove the restriction.

In the interests of a complete answer and with the understanding that it likely won't apply to your situation, it should be said that if you go further, you'll encounter thermodynamic limitations by way of the inability of the components to dissipate heat and/or will encounter mechanical limitations either by way of interference or outright failure from the additional heat and stress.

Last edited by longeze; 11-14-2017 at 05:37 PM.
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