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Old 02-11-2019, 10:47 AM   #21
longeze
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Originally Posted by SoCalFZRider View Post
Interesting articles in the links longeze.

Room acoustics... the never ending black hole...
One of my favorites to that point is post #42 in this thread:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/stud...-design-2.html
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Old 02-12-2019, 07:49 AM   #22
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^^^ Some serious effort there!
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Old 02-12-2019, 08:30 AM   #23
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Wow. I knew people take this topic far, but that is next galaxy stuff right there
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:59 PM   #24
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...As to the louvered studio, I admit that I'm guilty of adjusting my louvered shutters and rearranging the books in my bookcases after seeing those pix, just to see if it would make a difference...

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Originally Posted by SoCalFZRider View Post
Room acoustics... the never ending black hole... In the end it's all your personal taste for what you listen to, where you are, how loud it is... What works for me, works for me, and no one else...
To your point - SoCal, the article posted in the link below was my jumping off point into the looking glass. While you and the others posting on this thread are most likely already aware of this stuff, still it's an interesting overview of where audio technology is headed(in part) and why, from one of the guys whose tech is in lots of receivers these days. I think it goes straight to the core of your post - SoCal...

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/06/s...pagewanted=all
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Old 02-12-2019, 05:46 PM   #25
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Great article longeze. The term "pyscoacoustics" sums up a human factors approach to sound reproduction very well. You might even call it development of audio virtual reality.

To relax at night, I frequently listen to a Pandora mix of modern blues/jazz/instrumentals, digitally delivered to my Yamaha receiver, at a very low volume. Laid back in a zero-gravity recliner, there is a speaker on each side of me a couple feet away. The recliner is in a corner, speakers are at 45 deg from the wall, so any sound pressure reflections that do exist are directed away from me. With the house quiet, it becomes a very clean audio environment. It doesn't need to be loud, and I don't want it loud. FWIW - volume of choice is -64 dB on an 85W system.

Thanks for the links . Interesting to read about technology and where it was headed in 2011. Looking at modern equipment, they have made some good progress. I'll be relocating in a year or two, making an ideal time for a complete home entertainment system upgrade. These articles give me more to look forward to
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Old 02-14-2019, 01:00 AM   #26
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... The term "pyscoacoustics" sums up a human factors approach to sound reproduction very well. You might even call it development of audio virtual reality.
I also think of it that way as well as a sort of audio holography. More on that later.

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...To relax at night, I frequently listen to a Pandora mix of modern blues/jazz/instrumentals, digitally delivered to my Yamaha receiver, at a very low volume. Laid back in a zero-gravity recliner, there is a speaker on each side of me a couple feet away
You're living large - has to be said ;)

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...It doesn't need to be loud.. FWIW - volume of choice is -64 dB on an 85W system...
While I wish I could listen at lower levels and be content, both because of hearing loss from sound men wielding highly overpowered PA systems like assault weapons with stage monitors for delivery vehicles and because of the rather large area(16' cathedral ceiling & open adjacent rooms) that need to be pressurized to make things sound "real", I usually find myself at about -5db from reference level (~85db @MLP), this despite fairly efficient horns in my system. That's just what it takes to get the job done.

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...Interesting to read about technology and where it was headed in 2011. Looking at modern equipment, they have made some good progress
FWIW, my 2016 preamp uses essentially the same Audessey system as my 2010 receiver. The 2016 preamp has Auro-matic, which uses psycho-acoustics pretty effectively. Further, I'm able to apply psycho-acoustic principles to enhance the realism of Atmos playback (object oriented) tracks, using the speaker timing adjustment capabilities of the Datasat by offsetting the timing of my height, wide, side surround and rear speaker pairs independently of each other.

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...These articles give me more to look forward to
For your consideration(channeling my Rod Serling again now) I submit these few bullet points outlining what I've been able to achieve to this point with a modest amount of effort and the crux of the little bit of insight I've gained about audio reproduction generally:

I've been able to create an audio 3d bubble environment that can be varied in any direction by altering the timing of speaker pairs or changing timing presets I've created. The key to achieving the basic effect is getting the timing of all the speakers aligned accurately and the timbre reasonably close.

Once you can create a convincing sound bubble, it opens up a myriad of possibilities as you can imagine and as described in that above referenced article. For example, you can playback a recording of a singer and place their voice anywhere or everywhere in the room. The effect of placing vocals in the middle upper area of the room has an ethereal quality that is hard to describe other than to say it can be exquisitely beautiful. Channel separation can be maintained, so the band or orchestra(if any) will still seem to come from expected locations in the room, and the voice itself may shift its location somewhat. It's not at all the same thing as having all the speakers playing the track simultaneously, although the system can do that to good effect for "party-mode".

You can expand the room to the point that an outdoor environment is accurately simulated. You can hear things at varying distances in every direction(except down) although the infinite baffle sub often creates waves across the floor, but that's a different matter. This expansion effect can manifest itself in a VR sort of manner, such that if you're playing back orchestra music for example, you can clearly hear the instruments coming from different rows at varying distances, seated all around you. It's the damnedest thing, it's almost palpable with certain tracks. Best I can describe this effect, is as a sort of aural hug. The sound is rather like a furry texture that you can reach into and feel. I can say that I've never heard or felt/experienced anything at all like it before.

When playing back well done recordings of bands with electric instruments(or mic'd vocals/drums etc), what I hear is indistinguishable from what I know to be "real" sounding, with the possible exception that often times the musicians aren't located correctly on stage when listening to studio tracks as would be expected. What I'm talking about here, is if you played a trumpet or saxophone live in the room and played back a good recording of it, you couldn't tell the difference in the room. This is one of the main things I've learned from messing around with this stuff.

Until I started messing around with multiple channels and subtle speaker/amp/ channel timing adjustments, whatever I listened to would sound "like" the real thing, but would never sound quite real. Now it can and often does. The thing is, it's not that expensive, it's just a bit time consuming to learn the basics of how to use the tools to get you there. I'm pretty certain that anyone can get this same experience with decent equipment capable of pressurizing their listening room and either spending enough time to move their speakers around(and having the space to do it), or by using a solution like minidsp on each channel and getting Dirac to do the hard work for you.

With Psycho-acoustics, the realism of movie soundtracks is enhanced and so is the immersive quality of the film as a result. For eg, as scenes change from room to room, the size of the rooms change and is clearly audible. When there is an outdoor scene, you hear things like traffic and birds/planes, background voices etc etc at appropriate distances. That all helps trick you into feeling as though you are in the movie rather than watching it.

Auro creates multiple vertical layers by reproducing what is sent to the the base layer into height speakers and adding their special sauce. It's great for music. It's all but dead in film soundtracks with the exception of a few Sony films yet to be released. Auromatic is a codec you can apply to the playback stream(even to Dolby TrueHD and DTS). With remarkable accuracy, it can take a 2 channel sound track and expand it to 11 channels with such accuracy that you'd swear it was recorded that way. Pretty cool technology for sure and really increases the utility and enjoyment I get from my sound system.

Atmos is an object oriented system that lets the sound mixer place a certain number of objects(9 at the present time for home systems last I heard) into the mix and move them around in the room independently from each other. Atmos uses a Dolby "TrueHD" base base layer and adds height speakers to that basic mix is the gyst of it. The effect of Atmos when done well is pretty incredible. The effect of having a sounds fly directly at you then disperse is a little disconcerting and definitely artificial sounding but can be very entertaining. When Atmos is done "right", it can really enhance the realism of a soundtrack. For example in the film "Sully", when boarding the airplane there are sounds of the baggage bins being opened and closed above and around you. You would swear you were standing in the isle trying to get your seat. It gives you a glimpse of what's possible yet to come when this technology is strategically employed. Dolby have their own codec to expand channel content as well. It's akin to the Auromatic codec I described above, but with an additional 2 channels. I like it for some films but generally not as well for listening to music.

I realize that this post was ridiculously long and off the OP topic, so if it's objectionable, I'll be happy to delete it. Disclaimer aside, on the off chance some of you might be interested in my broad overview of this stuff, I thought I'd post a few thoughts. Listen safe!
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Old 02-14-2019, 07:40 AM   #27
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I realize that this post was ridiculously long and off the OP topic, so if it's objectionable, I'll be happy to delete it. Disclaimer aside, on the off chance some of you might be interested in my broad overview of this stuff, I thought I'd post a few thoughts. Listen safe!
Oh no man! That post is awesome, filled with fantastic info
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Old 02-14-2019, 08:38 AM   #28
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...audio holography...
I like this description from a technical perspective. Very accurate.

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...listen at lower levels... ...I've been able to create an audio 3d bubble...
I'm creating an environment to relax and eventually fall asleep. You are creating an immersive experience. Two completely different scenarios.

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...hearing loss from sound men ...
LOL. I have many hours behind a sound board. Sliders, switches and knobs are incredibly powerful controls. And I can dial in the music how I like it if I choose. I've blasted my ears many times trying to listen to the stage mix or recording mix in a set of headphones.

Actually, hearing loss is nothing to laugh about. My exams show I have a 50-60 dB deficit in mid-range frequencies, 1-3 kHz. At 500 Hz hearing is normal. I can hear a freight train a mile down the tracks, but can't hear the coffee maker beep or the continuity tone on my Fluke DMM.

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...I realize that this post was ridiculously long... ...Listen safe!
I read it all! Very interesting.

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Old 02-14-2019, 10:37 AM   #29
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Audio Musings Pt II:

I first got half a clue about any of this psycho-acoustic stuff from reading the Denon 4311 Audyssey thread. Quite a ways in and after too many nights of lost sleep to consider, this guy Chris puts up a post in reply to someone dissatisfied with the auto setup Audyssey is giving him. The post essentially instructs the OP to try tuning the speaker timing in pairs - by ear, both from side to side and front to back until things sound balanced. As it turns out, Chris is the very same guy that was interviewed in the above mentioned article on Psycho-Acoustics; Dr. Chris Kyriakakis who invented Audyssey. A brush with greatness - who knew.

One thing led to another as usual & I eventually found that the devil is in the "detail"s - quite literally. Once I made a systematic effort to get the phase relationships of the speakers as uniform as I could using REW, not only did the sound field become more integrated, but all manner of subtle detail in familiar recordings was revealed. Things like the singer taking a breath in between phrases or faint background guitar parts could now be heard. If you listen carefully, you can hear tracks being punched in for overdubs - plain as day.

Phase cancellation(the principle of noise cancelling headphones) became much less of an issue, so the system isn't wasting power working against itself as much. You really can't tune phase alignment very accurately by ear over a broad spectrum - at least I certainly can't. You have to overlay pink noise waveforms or sine/square wave channel sweeps in pairs, then adjust speaker physical location or channel timing until the patterns from each channel line up visually in REW.

Once you get all those ducks in a row, then you can mess with channel pair timing offsets to adjust your simulated room acoustics to make the room sound the way you like it. Think more or less echo, longer, wider, higher or some combination thereof. For pure stereo, getting things perfectly timed as possible and finding the actual "sweet spot" for the MLP(Main Listening Position - sorry) would be my focus. As ridiculous as it seems, a few inches(or less) either way in a 2 channel system can make all the difference. No, you don't listen to music sitting dead still with your head in a vise, but you need to check room response at several locations to get an average, so that you're not misled by the inevitable crappy room acoustics.

The audiophile crowd and people who are concerned with so called "critical listening" I think place excessive emphasis on such qualities as how warm an amp sounds or the tone quality of various pieces of gear, even at the component level such as detailed in those links I posted about capacitors. I'm certainly guilty of it. I used to pour over tech specs before deciding on which components I should be looking at.

For me, it turns out that "realism" in sound reproduction isn't to be found there. I can't hear the difference in .01THD now or then anyway. Noise floor is probably much more important. It gives your system more headroom so it can sound more powerful even though it isn't, that is to say that musical dynamic range is expanded. Creating realistic ambiance seems to be the main thing.

As far as authenticity is concerned, my brain doesn't seem to care all that much if the overall sound is more pleasingly warm or not. I always thought I did, but it turns out that I really don't. I can like the overall sound, but it won't make it seem any more real, just more pleasing to listen to. I think it's the acoustic field that really sells the realism and I think that you can get that with very modest components - as I have done. Yet another long way around to say that rather than be so concerned about THD & Hz response when buying audio stuff, money is better spent buying or building(nod to OP here ) halfway decent speakers, an amp(s) powerful enough to fill your room with sound and a few bucks for some strategically placed room treatments to help deal with the inevitable room nulls. The acoustic batts I threw around the room, allow me to listen to some acoustic material(guitar for eg) at lower levels and still be convincing.

There's one other piece to this psycho-acoustic business worth mentioning and that's the tendency of the human brain to lock onto whatever it hears first for directional cues. Once tuned, I can easily hear differences of a couple ms. If you play the same sound from 2 sources at varying locations, the one you hear first sounds the loudest up to a certain threshold. You can exploit that phenomena to reinforce areas of your room that may have nulls or to shift the balance in a given direction or even to help compensate for marginal speakers. I'm using the effect to exaggerate the dimensions of my room by applying that principle to certain speaker pairs.

Okay, so after all this, what's the bottom line? Since I heard my first stereo recording, I've always compared my systems to the "best" system I had heard to that point. I've never been at all satisfied with any of it. No matter how "good" any of it sounded, none of it sounded true to life. It's like looking at a photo of something. It looks real, but you know it isn't, if only because it's a 2D representation. Why should sound and music be any different? Our senses are ALL wired for a 3D world. Anything other than that which we experience will seem "off".

I've been concerning myself with the wrong things. Yes, stereo helps somewhat, but it's still only expanding the sound in one plane. Worrying about the exact crossover point or extent of warmth or THD of a stereo system is like worrying about the realism of the grain of paper in a photograph. You may prefer the look of it using one paper over another, but it won't make the photo look truly real. By creating a 3D sound bubble, you can overcome that limitation and take a giant step forward towards realistic sound reproduction.

But wait, you say my guitar amp only has one speaker, so why would anyone need more to reproduce a recording of it? I don't really know. The answer is above my pay grade, but my guess is that it's because you've recorded it in one location and are playing it back in another. The result is that it sounds false in rather subtle ways that our brains can easily detect, such as how the sound reflects off the boundaries of your room vs the room it was recorded in.

With the sound bubble, you can actually hear - space. It's probably more accurate to say that you can hear the volume of any given space. That includes the volume of the space within the body of the guitar or lack thereof and the resonant qualities attendant to that instrument when played in the room in which it was recorded.

Yeah well what if the guitar was recorded in a studio and plugged directly into the board then eh? The result is that when played back in the sound bubble, it sounds like you're sitting at the studio desk listening to monitors. I know this because I've sat there often and long enough to be very familiar with the flat often over-damped sound of it. With mic'd studio recordings, you can hear the room the recording was made in. It made me laugh the first time I listened to a good studio recording with the sound bubble. It sounded exactly like my living room had been turned into a studio recording space. It's pretty incredible really, since my room isn't at all very good. In fact, it's awful. There are hard asymmetrical surfaces everywhere.

How real? If I close my eyes, when I play along while practicing to learn parts off recordings, the musical experience is pretty much indistinguishable from having the band in the room with me. The main difference is that I'm sitting in the wrong place relative to the other musicians on the recording and nobody is talking or playing as poorly as I'm unfortunately accustomed to.

If pressed, I'd say you can set up a system that will create a convincing sound bubble for about the price of a nice gen2 FZ1. Regardless, if you're a person interested in making your stereo sound good, I encourage you to download the free REW program and spend a couple nights with it. Use whatever microphone you have lying around. For timing purposes it really won't matter much. For setting channel EQ, I find that my ears still work pretty well for getting things sounding the same, so I don't sweat the fact that my mic may not have a compensation curve and probably neither should you.

Finally, if any of you decide to play with this stuff, post up with your experiences.. it's interesting to compare notes. I know I've probably posted about some of this before, but I think of it like doing my bit as Johnny AudioSeed... Doing my part to help the technology become mainstream. Also, you never know when someone reading this will have their own innovation they'll bring to the table to further advance the science & experience. Have fun!

If any of this interests you, might want to check out this link as a jumping off point or just Google "psychoacoustics": http://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com...uction-feature

Last edited by longeze; 02-14-2019 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 02-14-2019, 11:08 AM   #30
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You guys were evidently posting while I was busy writing the last chapter of War and Peace - lol. Thanks for the kind words! It's good to know that the time writing is well spent and that there's some interest in these matters.

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...I have many hours behind a sound board...

Actually, hearing loss is nothing to laugh about. My exams show I have a 50-60 dB deficit in mid-range frequencies, 1-3 kHz. At 500 Hz hearing is normal. I can hear a freight train a mile down the tracks, but can't hear the coffee maker beep or the continuity tone on my Fluke DMM.

...Howard Leight Max-1 ear plugs. I'm on my second box of 200 pair.
Ahhh a brother in mayhem... excellent! No, I consider myself a victim of physical assault. People seem to think hearing loss from excessive volume is funny, including the jackasses who were in that band I was working for at the time. I had spent decades being reasonably careful to protect my hearing - within reason, only to have my upper range wiped out in a few seconds by a clueless asshole on a mixing board with a new toy. Yeah, you can probably tell I'm more than a little ticked off - still. Sorry for the rant...

Howard Leight - Small world! I courted Howard Leight Industries as a sponsor for a number of years when I was racing. He was good enough to give me free product, but that's as far as I could get with them. He was very generous with his time with me though and his earplugs work great! Too bad I found that out "after the fact".

I'm VERY sorry to read about your hearing loss - especially the extent of it. I suppose I should consider myself fortunate to "only" have persistent tinnitis(sp?) as a constant reminder. Pretty much everything over 8K got wiped out for me. Since there's no choice anyway, I've learned to live with it and accept it. I hope you've made your peace with yours as well. Can't hear the coffee maker or your Fluke huh? Meh... they'll never make it into the top 40 anyway (couldn't resist.. I know I know.. still not funny ... )
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Old 02-14-2019, 11:19 AM   #31
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...Psycho-acoustics, ...
As I imagine Dave Barry would say, that would be "A GOOD NAME FOR A ROCK BAND", maybe even better than some of these: http://www.davebarry.com/gg/rockband.html
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Old 02-14-2019, 11:36 AM   #32
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I'll read your War and Peace novel. Cool stuff.

Understand the rant. I've been a "victim" as well, by a careless technician with a hot-mic in an altitude chamber banging the microphone against the wall while I'm in the control room on a headset. I actually ripped the headset off, threw it across the room, and let out a few choice words. It was physically painful. The tinnitus is non-stop. Most of the times I can ignore it, sometimes it gets pretty loud. Sounds like a 1 or 2 kHz ring. I don't have hearing test results over 5k, don't know what's left. All I know is looking at 22 or 24 kHz capability on a stereo system is a complete waste of time.

Actually I laughed at your top 40 comment. I protect what I have left. Some of the worst part is I don't hear the cymbals or hi-hat unless the music is way too loud. For tone controls at home, bass setting is a little negative, treble is maxed out. Maybe that's why I listen to music that uses a lot of bass guitar to carry the rhythm instead of a dominant drummer.

It is what it is. I've given up the sound board (what good is a deaf sound guy LOL?) and have recently taken up bass guitar. That's when I turn up the volume to fill the room at a reasonable SPL.
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Old 02-14-2019, 06:14 PM   #33
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I'll read your War and Peace novel... SPL.
Now I know how it feels to be a summer-school teacher assigning homework ;) I guess it's pretty obvious that I have difficulty paring down broad subject matter into a couple paragraphs and calling it job done...

FWIW, I still have my Precision basses, although I haven't picked either of them up in several years. The fretless especially is such a warm and intimate instrument I could never think of selling it. If you're just starting out playing bass, I strongly encourage you to learn to play with the THREE fingers of your right hand and not just with a pick as so many do.

Arkie - If I ever start a band I'll know where to look for the name... Where were you with this when I was 17? Funny stuff!!!
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Old 02-14-2019, 06:46 PM   #34
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Old 02-15-2019, 07:54 AM   #35
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^^^ What a legend. Tragic the most of the world didn't recognize him until after he passed at such a young age. ^^^

I'm an old dog and my fingers follow suit. I've learned to pluck with two and use the 3rd for muting. You are suggesting I pluck with all three? I suppose I can add one to the mix. I played with one for 3 months. Learning two was a double, another makes it only a 50% add . I bought a bag of picks with my first guitar but didn't like using one.

My other hand moves around the fretboard at glacial speed and fingers spread apart like frozen butter. Should have learned this stuff back when I was 10 and introduced to the orchestra. Didn't want anything to do with strings at the time - would rather go ride my bicycle.

A favorite way to practice is with the 12-bar blues. Gives me something to play while working on technique and learning what to play other than root notes. I learned drums as a kid so I have a good start on keeping a rhythm. Have software called "Band in a Box" where I can write chord progressions and apply a bunch of musical styles on top of them, playable in my den via Windows through a Sony sound bar and sub-woofer. Plenty of volume to play along with. I need your virtual audio bubble

Next year hear me play at the House of Blues in Vegas

I've strayed a long way from the OP's topic...
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Old 02-15-2019, 08:03 AM   #36
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I've strayed a long way from the OP's topic...
Naw, it is all about music. This is much more interesting than a $149 DSP box
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Old 02-15-2019, 11:22 AM   #37
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One finger only, Jamerson style.
Great pick ;) Tough to cover Prestia or Jaco with 1 though - if that's your thing.

Socal: Using 3 makes it easier to play across the strings and lets you rest your hand by taking some strain off the other 2. Varying your hand position (switching btwn 2 & 3) helps ur hand stay relaxed. Since ur already playing w/2, I wouldn't sweat it, just something to keep in mind when ur hand starts to get tired.

The webbing btwn the fingers of ur L hand(assuming ur Rt handed) needs time to stretch.. (6 mo.~yr). It's more difficult as we age. If ur not inclined to work(daily) to stretch out, consider switching to a shorter neck.

FWIW, practicing arpeggios & scales daily & adding a new 1/Wk til u can do em in every key, is very efficient. Do this both across the strings(in ea position using the entire neck) as well as on ea individual string alone. It's a chore 2B sure, but in 3~6 mos u'll surprise urself. It'll frees u from struggling to figure out where the notes are all the time, so u can focus on learning to play what u hear - which is way more fun. BIAB is great btw-I use it too ;)

BTW, I don't mean 2B preaching 2 the choir.. As I found out, being a pro sound man u've probably forgotten more about acoustics & sound then I've ever known.
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Old 02-15-2019, 01:10 PM   #38
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Thanks for the tips! Arpeggios & scales across the strings are already part of the practice routine. Haven't really played them up the neck on the same string, I didn't think there was much benefit in that, but see it would help you learn where the notes are higher up the neck. Played a short scale acoustic for a while, then switched to a 4-string Fender Jazz.

Have studied the fretboard and music theory for about as many hours as I've practiced.

Fretting fingers stretch apart until I bend them around the neck. That's when they tend to form a tight grouping. Keeping the fingers straighter seems to help.

What's your take on shifting a string and playing at the 5th fret instead of starting at the nut, besides the obvious 5 lowest notes?

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Old 02-15-2019, 01:49 PM   #39
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Haven't touched my bass in awhile. Been taking classical guitar at the local community college. Second semester, reading and counting in two lines now.
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Old 02-15-2019, 06:02 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalFZRider View Post
...already part of the practice routine. Haven't really played them up the neck on the same string, I didn't think there was much benefit... then switched to a 4-string Fender Jazz.
Good on you for disciplined practice & theory! B'sides learning note locations, playing arps & scales on single strings teaches you 2B fast, smooth & precise up & dn the neck so u can change positions easily by feel. While ur at it, focus on playing evenly so u can't hear a difference in timing or attack & release of the notes when changing positions. This also addresses Ur last question about shifting position & string, instead of playing by the nut. Learn ALL the positions on the instrument -including thumb position.

U'll find that certain lines or patterns require playing the same note in a different position on a different string for the pattern to fall easily under Ur fingers. If U want to use harmonics(U should), walk 10ths or use traids, U gotta know how to get around on the neck.

Going further, playing the same pitch on a different string produces a different timbre. This is useful when playing different styles. Some note locations are "dead" relative to others, so when U want to sustain a note, this is useful knowledge as well.

At the risk of further choir preaching, a Precision bass has a shorter neck than a Jazz bass. They're interchangable, so u can put a P bass neck on a Jazz. The longer string length of a Jazz bass is nice(tonally) & for sustain, but when playing for any length of time, gets tiring (even when I was a kid) & shorter necks let U play faster. Because the jumps are longer and the notes are further apart on a Jazz neck, it takes more consistent concentration & effort to play, so it breeds sloppy habits to get thru the night - eg fingering notes with 2 fingers or jumping to get notes with ur middle finger so u don't have to use ur last 2(fingers).

I started out playing cello & upright bass B4 I picked up an electric bass. There's something about the hand position on an electric bass neck that makes it tiring for the L hand. I think that's why U see some guys playing with their neck in a vertical orientation -John Pattatucci or Tony Levin 4 eg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalFZRider View Post
...Fretting fingers stretch apart until I bend them around the neck. That's when they tend to form a tight grouping. Keeping the fingers straighter seems to help.
Nice signage Classical technique teaches that your fingers should be curved in an arc, such that U damp the strings with ur pads. Ur thumb should be at the back center of the neck. When I was gigging with that axe, I'd sometimes get lazy/bored & play flat fingered as well. I think most guys do it. Keeping ur fingers curved requires less effort & strength tho & helps u play quickly & with precision. It also allows U to use vibrato for expression. Ornaments like that are often overlooked on fretted instruments, but still do-able & will put ur musicianship up a notch. I hope this helps -If u have questions, I'm always happy to talk shop with a fellow musician.

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Originally Posted by gotfz1 View Post
...Been taking classical guitar at the local community college. Second semester, reading and counting in two lines now.
I've picked up the guitar a couple times but never could relate to the thing. I'm kinda jealous of those who can do it, but my fingers don't want to twist up like spaghetti. I always knew I'd be a better bass player if I learned to play a guitar, but a mans gotta know his limitations... so I became a KB player instead.
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