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Go Back   FZ1OA Message Board > FZ1 & Fazer Owners Association > FZ1 Problems & Issues > Gen 2 Problems & Issues

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Old 10-05-2012, 08:52 AM   #1
Bazooka1973
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Engine knocking from a cold start

Hi,

My 2007 FZ1s has just had a service at 64k miles. When I started it at the dealership, I noticed a knocking noise at the front of the engine that wasnt there when I took it in. The service manager looked at it but couldnt trace the noise, he stated that they had only changed the oil and air filters so could not have caused the knock.

As we were discussing it the knocking went away, so I rode it away. Problem is, since then it knocks every morning on startup, the colder it is, the worse the knock but it always gets better as the engine warms up.

I have read around all over the place today and it could be anything!! But I trying simple first by adding some Redline to the fuel to clean carbon deposits (supposedly).

Currently I have read it could be:
Cold carbon knock
Crank wear
Pre-ignition of fuel
Piston slap
Timing belt loose or worn.

I think its worth getting it looked into but I dont trust this garage. If I took it elsewhere, is there anything in particular I could check first? and if not what shoudl I ask them to check? Compression in the cylinders?

I know the FZ1 engines are noisy but this is a new noise! lol. Just want to prevent an engine melt down if possible.

Things I have checked:

The oil level is fine, oil is new 600 miles ago.
Power appears to be ok
Noise doesnt vanish with clutch pulled in.
Noise only diminishes as engine warms up.
Engine was rebuilt at 35k miles so effectively only has 30k miles on it.

Thanks for any help.
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Old 10-05-2012, 09:16 AM   #2
motomania
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The FZ has a timing chain, not a belt but I don't think a loose timing chain would stop making noise as the engine warms up.

Knocking is usually cause by preignition. Preignition is usually caused by carbon deposits inside the combustion chamber. The carbon deposits do 2 things: they take up space and thus increase the net compression ratio which can lead to dieseling that can trigger the combustion before top dead center. The carbon deposits can also retain heat that is not supposed to be present and that heat can also trigger the combustion before top dead center.

Tests to make sure it is not the bearings in the crank of connecting rod include: measuring oil pressure and examining your oil and filter for bearing flakes.

Another thing that can cause a knocking sound when an engine is cold is too slow of a idle speed. This can be caused by someone adjusting it down or by having oil that is too thick for the cold start-ups.

Did the dealer change the oil viscosity or adjust the idle speed?

If it is merely a slow idle, you may have one cylinder that is misfiring (not firing every time it is supposed to be) and thus that gap in the firing order causes a very audible gap in the engine sound that some think sounds like a knock.

The easiest way to check for this is to start with a cold engine and as it runs, lick your finger and lightly touch each header pipe. If one of the header pipes causes your spit to sizzle later than the others then that can indicate a misfiring cylinder.

A misfiring cylinder can be the result of primary circuit issues in that carb or a dirty injector as this is a Gen 2. A loose spark plug connection can also cause a misfring cylinder.

If it were my bike, I would test the header temps on initial warm up as that is the easiest test to do. If I found an issue there I would adjust the idle speed up a little to see if that helps. I would also add some seafoam or equivalent fuel system treatment/cleaner to the tank and run that for a tank or two and see if that improves things.

If it doesn't improve things then I would start digging deeper.
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Old 10-05-2012, 09:32 AM   #3
Bazooka1973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motomania View Post
The FZ has a timing chain, not a belt but I don't think a loose timing chain would stop making noise as the engine warms up.

Knocking is usually cause by preignition. Preignition is usually caused by carbon deposits inside the combustion chamber. The carbon deposits do 2 things: they take up space and thus increase the net compression ratio which can lead to dieseling that can trigger the combustion before top dead center. The carbon deposits can also retain heat that is not supposed to be present and that heat can also trigger the combustion before top dead center.

Tests to make sure it is not the bearings in the crank of connecting rod include: measuring oil pressure and examining your oil and filter for bearing flakes.

Another thing that can cause a knocking sound when an engine is cold is too slow of a idle speed. This can be caused by someone adjusting it down or by having oil that is too thick for the cold start-ups.

Did the dealer change the oil viscosity or adjust the idle speed?

Dealer changed the oil to the recommended lubricant (its 10w 40 I think) They are a Yammy dealer. I dont think they adjusted the idel speed but will check that as its easy to remedy, it didnt sound low however.

If it is merely a slow idle, you may have one cylinder that is misfiring (not firing every time it is supposed to be) and thus that gap in the firing order causes a very audible gap in the engine sound that some think sounds like a knock.

The easiest way to check for this is to start with a cold engine and as it runs, lick your finger and lightly touch each header pipe. If one of the header pipes causes your spit to sizzle later than the others then that can indicate a misfiring cylinder.

A misfiring cylinder can be the result of primary circuit issues in that carb or a dirty injector as this is a Gen 2. A loose spark plug connection can also cause a misfring cylinder.

If it were my bike, I would test the header temps on initial warm up as that is the easiest test to do. If I found an issue there I would adjust the idle speed up a little to see if that helps. I would also add some seafoam or equivalent fuel system treatment/cleaner to the tank and run that for a tank or two and see if that improves things.

Will be adding Redline, not sure if I can get Seafoam in the UK? Will definately test the header temps. Its raining here none stop so I will just see if one doesnt dry out as fast as the others lol

If it doesn't improve things then I would start digging deeper.
Thankyou very much for your reply
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Old 10-05-2012, 09:36 AM   #4
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If my bike has sat for a while, and especially after an oil/filter change, I can hear a little more 'tapping' immediately after startup until the oil gets flowing.
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Old 10-05-2012, 09:39 AM   #5
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Don't over think it just yet.

If the only thing that has changed is oil, then figure out what viscosity the shop put in and go from there. Don't know where you are, or how cold it is yet, but thick oil and cold temps will cause your symptoms.

Adding my .02... Doing simple maintenance on your own bike is cheaper and more rewarding. Plus you don't have to worry and wonder what someone else "did" do it.
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:46 PM   #6
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Don't over think it just yet.

If the only thing that has changed is oil, then figure out what viscosity the shop put in and go from there. Don't know where you are, or how cold it is yet, but thick oil and cold temps will cause your symptoms.

Adding my .02... Doing simple maintenance on your own bike is cheaper and more rewarding. Plus you don't have to worry and wonder what someone else "did" do it.
Yup!

First rule of troubleshooting is to look at what was done last to the machine and see if something that was done could cause your symptom...
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2014 FZ-09: Traxxion Dynamics AT20 fork cartridges, Penske rear shock, R1/R6 master cylinder, SSL lines, custom tail, T-rex frame sliders and case protectors, ThrottleMeister handlebar end weights, G2 Throttle tamer, custom tank protectors, new mirrors with turnsignals built-in, ErMax 25cm flyscreen and ErMax radiator shrouds, Seat Concepts seat.
http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=130119

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Old 10-05-2012, 03:30 PM   #7
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I am surprised it was rebuilt at 30k... most dont even need a valve adjustment at that point... ?
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:30 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
Don't over think it just yet.

If the only thing that has changed is oil, then figure out what viscosity the shop put in and go from there. Don't know where you are, or how cold it is yet, but thick oil and cold temps will cause your symptoms.

Adding my .02... Doing simple maintenance on your own bike is cheaper and more rewarding. Plus you don't have to worry and wonder what someone else "did" do it.
+1, and what filter did they use?
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Old 10-06-2012, 04:15 PM   #9
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Its a bearing knock. You describe it EXACTLY for a bearing. You can ride till she lets go. Good Luck and sorry you have this problem.
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Old 10-06-2012, 04:42 PM   #10
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The pre-FZ era Yamaha's developed a very similar knocking sound when the header nuts came loose (a very common problem). With 64K on the clock it's very possible you have some loose header nuts.
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Old 10-08-2012, 06:43 AM   #11
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If it was header bolts he would be VERY lucky. I hope that is all it is. But, in the end, it is a bearing knock. Rebuilding motors is really a lot of work and has to be done perfect. I mean all clearances need to be perfect or you end up having the same problem all over again. Bearing knocks are the worst sound in the world for the owner! That sound sucks!!!
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Old 10-08-2012, 07:01 AM   #12
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Or it could be valve train noise due to low oil pressure. Lower viscosity oil might cause this. Try to find out the brand and especially the viscosity they put in. Is it different from what you were using?
Did they put in a lighter oil (lower viscosity) for the winter - without asking you if you wanted it?
---If they put in something like 5w-40 --- that 5w is your working viscosity until the engine warms up the oil to get to the 40 viscosity.
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:29 AM   #13
Bruce in Tucson
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+1, and what filter did they use?
Had my GMC Safari Van do this last winter, horrible sound when cold. Fortunately it has an oil pressure guage and the oil pressure was pegged! Changed the oil filter and the noise stopped. Been using Bosch filters for years with never an issue but obviously had a bad one. I'd swap out the filter, easy & cheap test to see if that's the problem.
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:12 AM   #14
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Not to be a Debbie downer but knocking is not good. Only time I have heard cold start knocking is too thick of an oil or a motor with a problem or both.

I would change the oil myself and hope that takes care of it. If you need help maybe there is a board member close by that can help. Where are you?
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:41 AM   #15
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+1 on you probably got thicker oil than what you had before. Or there's a flow obstruction that was introduced with the oil change, somehow.

Do the obvious first, based on what you know changed from the last known good state.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:33 AM   #16
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+1 on you probably got thicker oil than what you had before. Or there's a flow obstruction that was introduced with the oil change, somehow.

Do the obvious first, based on what you know changed from the last known good state.
Yeah, like restoring Windows to the last known good boot...or however they word it? LOL
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:00 AM   #17
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Oh, the suspense!
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:39 AM   #18
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Yeah - We're waiting....
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Old 10-14-2012, 07:48 PM   #19
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I am kind of curious too? Any updates?
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Old 11-01-2013, 02:59 AM   #20
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same here

hello everyone.

well............. I know have the same noise on an 08 plate fz1 fazer with only 17K miles on the clock, started a little while ago as a quite knock when started cold, this went away within about 20/30 secs as soon as it warms up and oil gets around, but its now turned into quite a loud knock which doesn't start straight away, it takes about 5 secs to start making the noise then it knocks for about aother 20 seconds or so.


I have an old fz1 engine in my garage after crashing one and snappingthe frame in half so have tried using good parts to wiork out the issue, I swapped the whole clutch basket and plates over, did a full plugs and oil service and now looking at the cam chain tensioner.

the main issue though is all of these things would continue to make the noise even after warm up I guess, its almost as though once the oil starts to get around it goes quite.


its leaving me with the idea of coming off the road for the winter and dropping the whole engine out and taking my time to strip the head off, that way I can inspect of bottom end bearings gone or piston slap. I sill record a short clip this weekend and post on this thread.


NOT HAPPY, engine is only 17k, making me want a super duke R more now ggggrrrrrrrrrr
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